rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 9:23 AM |
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I was doing some research and found many pictures of toy fox terriers... they look SO much like rat terriers! I believe the little "rat terrier" at the animal shelter last week must have been a toy fox terrier. I've seen and actually worked with a few of the wire-haired fox terriers, but they have a completely different look.
http://www.gotpetsonline.com/pictures/gallery/dogs/terrier-dogs/toy-fox-terriers/
http://puppydogweb.com/gallery/toyfoxterriers/e.htm
If you all saw a picture of one of these with no verbal description... would you know it's a toy fox terrier? (can be confusing if you just go by appearance, right?)
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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alice4512
Firehouse Big Dog
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| 09/08/2008 9:39 AM |
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OMG, I would not be able to tell the difference at all. Maybe Alice is a TFT?? LOL
WOW, very similar though. |
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The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too
~Mom to my good boy Fred and my crazy girl Alice~
Proud applications coordinator for Ratbone Rescue |
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rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 9:42 AM |
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It's confusing to me....
Was hoping maybe one of the breeders could expound on this? I know they are separate breeds, but the similarities are staggering! |
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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swatson6
Attention Starved
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| 09/08/2008 9:49 AM |
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| Even a lot of their descriptions on different sites are similar. I wouldn't be able to tell, that's for sure. I know some "look" more like either or, but many look so much alike! |
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Sarah
Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan
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daisydeux
Ratastic
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| 09/08/2008 9:56 AM |
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Wow, can't tell a difference at all!!!! I'm wondering if my Daisy is TFT. If I am ever able to figure out how to post pictures, I can't wait to put a picture of her up and get your opinions...sometimes I wonder if she's part ratty/min-pin, full ratty, or now TFT???? |
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rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 10:03 AM |
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I know that the rat terrier was one of the few originally "Bred in America" dogs. They came from a cross of the Smooth Fox Terrier and the Manchester Terrier. The Toy Fox Terrier was originally bred from the Smooth Fox Terrier and is a much smaller dog today. But so many of the "toy" rat terriers look like the toy fox terriers to me.
It's confusing... I'm not smart enough to figure it all out. :=( |
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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Amy
Bratty Ratty
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| 09/08/2008 10:09 AM |
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They all look rattie to me. Maybe their owners are misinformed. Yeah all the owners. |
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thecunninghams5.shutterfly.com
myspace.com/mrscunningham |
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Apollo's Mommy
Feisty
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| 09/08/2008 2:51 PM |
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They do look a lot alike. A lot of times if my Emma isn't mistaken for a Chi, she gets called a TFT. |
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"You can't fix stupid." - Ron White
~ Jolene ~
Mommy to Apollo, Emma, & Indie
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dogparkdawn
Ratastic
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| 09/08/2008 2:58 PM |
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Did you ever read this article by Theresa Baker on Ratter Chatter?
http://members.aol.com/cutzpy/rthistory.html/
I think it is well written and I'm sure T did her homework. It gives a good explanation of Rat Terrier History.
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Build a little Bird House in Your Soul.
Dawn Muscarella |
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Daxter
Ratastic
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| 09/08/2008 3:02 PM |
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| I can't tell the differences they all look alike to me. |
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Monica & Daxter |
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Dinks Mom
Terrier Terror
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| 09/08/2008 3:03 PM |
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WOW ~ I can't tell the difference either...every one of them looks like a Rattie to me....I've always thought a true TFT had a solid white body and a blk & wht head b/c that's pretty much the picture that I saw in several dog breed books.
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~Susy~
http://www.myspace.com/pbrluvr |
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Pam&Maggie
Ratastic
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| 09/08/2008 3:12 PM |
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| I think you can call them frank or joe or whatever, they are all cute. |
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The Rat Patrol
Pam, Maggie, Kidd Roo, Nitro and Rudy
Ratbones Rescue Volunteer
Ratbonerescues.com |
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rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 3:17 PM |
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| That's true, Pam -- they are all cute. But I can see why the confusion! Jolene -- Emma DOES look a lot like a TFT... and yet we know she's a rattie! LOL |
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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DaisysMom
Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 3:28 PM |
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| I think that a lot of people only THINK they have TFTs - LOL. |
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Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom
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DaisysMom
Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 3:31 PM |
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Toy Fox Terrier
Differences Between The Toy Fox Terrier And The Rat Terrier
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by Donna Sullivan, President Rat Terrier Club (UKC)
The Rat Terrier is a small to medium sized well muscled hunting dog. In the Rat Terrier, there are two sizes (miniature up to 13" and standard over 13" but not exceeding 18" . They're both coated and hairless. We do not have a toy or giant size in the Rat Terrier.
In many breeds - as in the Rat Terrier - you will find similarities - but it is the differences that distinguishes one breed from another. (Some examples are: Samoyeds/American Eskimos; Norfolk/Norwich Terriers; Lhasa Apso/Tibetan Terrier.
Let's review some of the obvious differences between a Toy Fox Terrier and a Rat Terrier:
TFT Size: Classified by weight - by age of 6 months may not weigh over 7 pounds.
Rat Terrier: Miniature up to 13" - Standard over 13" and not over 18".
TFT body: Appears to be square with height approximate to length. The backline is strong, straight and firm.
Rat Terrier body: Slightly longer than height with 10:9 ratio preferred. The backline is strong and slightly sloping.
TFT Colors: Predominantly white with acceptable colors of white, & black with tan trim; white & black; white & tan with specific markings of black & tan.
Rat Terrier Colors: Hairless - any skin color is acceptable, freckles enlarge with age and skin darkens with exposure to the sun. Coated - White; tri colored (white with patches of black & tan); bi colors (any combination of black, tan, chocolate, red, orange, lemon, or blue with white); the white may be any size and located anywhere on the dog.
TFT Ears: must be erect when alert; are pointed and well up on the sides; set close together; not touching nor set too wide.
Rat Terrier Ears: the V-shaped ears are set on the outside of the skull and may be erect, tipped or button.
TFT Eyes: eye set is prominently forward but not bulging; color is always dark - with as dark as possible preferred.
Rat Terrier Eyes: eyes are obliquely set; round and small - somewhat prominent; rim color matches nose pigmentation; color ranges from dark brown to amber and matches coat color.
TFT Appearance: a small dog that has conformation, characteristics and personality of a Terrier.
Rat Terrier Appearance: a small to medium sized muscular hunting dog that is evaluated as a working Terrier.
While these may appear to be subtle differences to the untrained eye, size, color, body, movement as well as character make each breed unique.
« Back
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Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom
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tauney4
Pack Leader
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| 09/08/2008 4:14 PM |
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| wow they look like ratties to me!!!!!! i tnought a toy fox terrier was a fuzzy little guy and its fur was redish orange!!!! |
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Apollo's Mommy
Feisty
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| 09/08/2008 5:27 PM |
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Posted By rattytatty on 09/08/2008 3:17 PM
That's true, Pam -- they are all cute. But I can see why the confusion! Jolene -- Emma DOES look a lot like a TFT... and yet we know she's a rattie! LOL
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"You can't fix stupid." - Ron White
~ Jolene ~
Mommy to Apollo, Emma, & Indie
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gwacie
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
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| 09/08/2008 6:00 PM |
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Several of those are either ratties or poorly bred TFTs IMO. I worked with TFT rescue and on the board for trying to get the breed into AKC for many years. The preferred look was most like number 5 on that site. Their heads are more petite than RT and less of a WEDGE shape. Also not as domed or buggy as a chihuahua. The standard is for quite small but they are often around 10lbs. My Zip is a purebred papered TFT who is 15lbs and very leggy. TFTs and RTs share so many common lines that they do look very similar. Plus there are many breeders who do not stay true to the standard.
One thing I love about ratties is that our standard is more flexible - allows for such wonderful variety in coat, color and size which I adore. Also ratties generally seem more laid back to me than TFTs. |
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gwacie (Bethany)
My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/
Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org |
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gwacie
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
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melo
Terrier Terror
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| 09/08/2008 7:02 PM |
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| Nora was playing with a toy fox today--I thought the dog was a tiny RT and spoke to the owner, who said the dog was a rescue. This dog might have been 7 pounds + or - some and was relentless when it came to playing with nora---the personality was so similar!!! But I think the rattie has more of a mona lisa smile than the Toy fox-- |
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Nora's mommie --
www.melodybreyer-grell.com
Selling CD's with 50 percent going to Ratbones!! Check it out! |
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winnihoohoo
Bratty Ratty
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| 09/08/2008 7:16 PM |
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If there are no such things as toy ratties, then mine must be very small miniatures...Funny, the UKCI said that after mine are a year old, I can send their registrations back in and get them reclassified as toys, if they are under 10 pounds, to "Toy Rat Terriers"...hhmm...It is after they are a year old, that their real classifications are able to be guaranteed. Both Reni, 6 lbs, and Remington, 7 lbs, are toys. |
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rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/08/2008 7:52 PM |
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But according to what's posted above... there are no toy rat terriers. And what about Decker rat terriers?
So many questions....
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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Mitzy's Mom
PAWesome
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| 09/09/2008 11:04 AM |
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Leaving TFT's out of it and looking only at rat terriers is confusing enough...different clubs have different opinions on sizes. UKC (United Kennel Club quoted above) is different from UKCI (Universal Kennel Club International). In UKCI they recognize toys, Deckers, Type B's etc. I "think" this is the one Mayfly is registered in....almost has to be since she's a type B!
Also, some dogs are right on the "cusp" so to speak. My foster dog Morgandy only weighed 9 pounds making her a toy BUT she was bigger than most toys and yet smaller than most mini's...
http://www.universalkennel.com/Standards/Standard%20Rat%20Terrier.htm
BREED: Rat Terrier
Country: USA
Group: Terrier
Size: Toy/Medium/Standard
Weight: 10 lbs. & under; over 10 lbs. to 18 lbs; over 18 lbs.
Height: up to 23 inches;
Coat: Short, smooth.
Color: Tri-spotted, red/white, solid red, solid black/tan, blue/white, red.
Type/Names: American Rat Terrier
For specific breed standards ( for shows ) contact Universal 845/624-5555. See below for a more detailed standard.
Official-Standard-Rat Terrier/General Description WHICH INCLUDE CLASS A, CLASS B & THE DECKER GIANT BLOODLINE Universal Kennel Club Inter.
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, New Rattitude
Check out our ratties at www.newrattitude.org |
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singingpilgrim
Ratastic
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| 09/10/2008 10:44 PM |
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Yeah, the size thing gets me... according to one club's standard Sophie is an on the cusp miniture-- she's half an inch taller than the largest miniture size, but weighs a pound and a half less than the standard size...
but according to another club she's WAY more than a minature and is quite definately a standard...
So I don't know. I mean, I guess she's a standard, but according to the one club she *might* be a larger miniature. But by no means is she a toy...
But I'm guessing the club that says she might be a large mini is the club that allows toys and the club that doesn't probably has a small mini qualification... if that makes sense...
So I don't really worry about if she's a toy/mini/standard (and from what I understand unless you have paperwork saying your doggies ancestors have decker bloodlines, you're just a large standard even if you're 35 pounds, which is why they say there is no giant size in ratties.. just really big standards). I just say "My dog is Sophie, a rat terrier who weighs sixteen and a half pounds" or even "she's the size of a large cat". And leave it at that!
And yes, if I had met one of those TFTs in a dog park I'd totally have thought them toy ratties (if such a thing exists. Oy.) |
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Pamela
~Sophia Abigail's Mom~
Ratbones Rescue Volunteer |
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Susan
Terrier Terror
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| 09/12/2008 12:06 AM |
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| I think the real difference is in attitude. My M-I-L's tft was very close to hyper and always snippy. Our ratties bark but are freindly to everybody and are not hyper at all. Ears are very different too, How they are set on the head mostly. Sometimes dogs are hard to tell apart, when I bred Boston Terriers, visitors to my house could never tell the dogs apart. It was easy to me, they did not even look alot alike, just colored alike. |
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ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys! |
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melo
Terrier Terror
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| 09/14/2008 12:43 AM |
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sue--what is the ear difference? |
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Nora's mommie --
www.melodybreyer-grell.com
Selling CD's with 50 percent going to Ratbones!! Check it out! |
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GoldRushKennels
Rat Royalty
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| 09/15/2008 11:33 AM |
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UKCI will register a rock and call it a Toy Rat Terrier.
TFT's are very fine boned. Ear set is much closer together. Most I have met have been de-barked as they bark at ANYTHING. I would trust one with my grandson, he may break it.
Many of the so called "Toy" ratties are TFT's that are too large to sell.
Chi's and TFT's are used to quickly breed down RT's to "Toy" size.
You can breed a small Rat Terrier correctly if you take the time and effort, but if you are out for the money.......... |
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Jeff & Janet
Gold Rush Kennels - Rat Terriers |
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rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/15/2008 12:14 PM |
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| THANK YOU Jeff and Janet ! Most of the toy rat terriers I've seen actually look like toy fox terriers. It's very confusing! So am I correct that you don't think there are any toy rat terriers? |
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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GoldRushKennels
Rat Royalty
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| 09/15/2008 12:37 PM |
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Not with the current registries that accually have conformation shows and have parent clubs. There are small mini RT's, I won't call them toys. But they look like a RT, have good bone structure. No apple heads. Small ones happen. I happen to like them, we have one right now that may make it to seven pounds. She will be fixed as soon as our vet says she can. If someone is breeding for the so called toy, they are in it for the money period. |
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Jeff & Janet
Gold Rush Kennels - Rat Terriers |
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rattytatty
Training Moderator
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| 09/15/2008 12:44 PM |
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I do agility with Bailey... and there is a lady who does agility with her "toy rat terrier". She has her ILP'd thru the AKC as a rat terrier, but this little dog cannot possibly weigh 7 lbs.... jumps 8 inch jumps... and looks like a toy fox terrier to me. But she says he's a toy rat terrier.
Bailey weighs 9.5 lbs... is 12 inches at the withers and jumps 12-inch jumps. There is no comparison in their bone structure... the nose is more "pointed", ears are set closer together and are erect. Bailey is ILP'd thru the AKC as a rat terrier also. |
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~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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