Ok, I'm bracing myself to be blown away with negative comments, but I do respect the opinions of this site and I could not with good conscience not ask the breeders here this question.  First of all, I know that everyone here is pretty much against breeding unless you are a professional champion show dog breeder...we should rescue...not breed.

But, every breeder got started somewhere, so please view me as a potential professional breeder.  I have a true love and passion for animals and breeding.  As a child and teenager, I had lots of kittens and puppies in my home.  I helped out in every way possible that  a human can from pre-natal care to delivery to daily care of the babies to adoption.  As an adult, I have had pets, but knew that breeding was something I would only do when I could donate my time and energy...not something for someone with a full time job or an infant.

When I first contemplated getting Tinkerbelle, I knew I wanted to breed her.  I'm a stay at home mom, my 4 year old will be going to pre-k next year for 5 days a week.  I have the resources and the education...I am not an idiot.  As I said, I have a passion for this breed and I am not looking for money.  Anyway, I've taken her to 2 vets to be checked out.  I can't get her patella's certified until she is 2 this summer, but the vet has already told me she is in great shape.  When I asked them to check her patella's, they found that her left leg has a luxating patella.  I was so upset and I said that I would have to get her spayed, but the vets have both told me that luxating patella in a rat terrier is NOT a reason to get her spayed.  Don't get me wrong, they are not encouraging me to breed, but they said don't let that be my reason to not breed.  I am so confused now.  The vets said that with all small breeds and particularly with the fine boned legs of a rattie, it is quite common to have a luxating patella.  They said it is genetic due to the size of the dog, not necessarily the heredity.  He said I could have two OFA certified dogs breed and their puppies could still have luxating patellas.  That a parent dog with good patellas or bad patellas does not mean the puppies will have the same.  I can't believe Tinkerbelle even has this problem.  She can run and jump like lightning and I have never seen her have any problem what so ever.  But, they did show me how they could pop it out to the side and it made me sick.  They had to manipulate it and it never did it on it's own, but there it is. 

I have 3 friends who are already on a waiting list for my puppies and 2-3 more who have said they would want one if I had them.  I know I will find good homes for my puppies.  There are not many reputable breeders around here.  I know I can do this and possibly get a breeding program started, but Tinkerbelle is my first and if she isn't  an acceptable breeding dog, than I will have to wait for my dream.  I love her so much and I want what is best for my doggie.  I hate to wait though,  I feel like now is the time for me.  What do you professional breeders think about the patellas.  Have you had puppies with luxating patellas even after the parents have been tested and certified?  I was thinking that if she has a female pup with good patella's, I could spay Tinkerbelle and then breed her pup when she is old enough.

Please don't blast me away.  I am a nice person!

Carol

I'd have to agree with Patricia on this one. I wouldn't breed a dog with patella issues.

I just want to add while yes, it is more common in small breed dogs it is still genetic.  Their bones do not develop quite as much as a large breed dog.  But the genetic part of it plays into that very much.  I would personally spay her and if you still want to breed maybe find another female  ( And I agree there is nothing for anyone to jump on here!)

I removed my post

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1569&articleid=457

Carol, I can't speak for anyone else but I did want to give my viewpoint on the breeding question. 

I'm not a breeder but although bad patellas can happen with any small dog the potential increases with heredity....I don't think a vet would have the best experience with this...I think other rat terrier breeders would.  Vets will tend to lump dogs into groups and it sounds like yours is lumping ratties into the "all small dogs" group.

Anyway, as far being a breeder, we need good, responsible breeders! Otherwise the rat terrier breed would fade away.  I certainly don't believe a breeder has to be showing and raising show champions and have a big kennel.  In fact, I prefer breeders who raise their dogs in their home.  As long as a person wanting to breed is doing for the improvement of the breed, has the financial resources necessary, does the testing and researches the family trees of male and female, and knows they will be able to place the puppies in good homes (or keep them themselves!) - then I see nothing wrong with your being a breeder.  It sounds like you've thought about it a lot and know that you have the time and ability to do this.  It may not be with Tinkerbelle but if you choose to spay her because of the possiblity of her passing on a bad medical condition then you are showing you want to be a breeder for the right reasons.  And there is nothing stopping you from getting another rattie who has no genetic problems to pass on.  JMO

Why did you remove it?  I did see what you wrote, I just didn't have time to respond.  You actually made me feel much better. 

Carol

Thanks everyone.  I kind of knew what you would say, but since my vets seemed so ..."not worried" ...I've been confused about what to do.  

Actually my vet has a rattie also.  He said his has a luxating patella as well, but it doesn't cause him any problems.

I'm glad you got to read it...

I was afraid you'd think I blasted you which I did not. I just kind of felt this might be better discussed more throughly in an e-mail.

Did you get my email? If not here is mine darlaj@graysoncable.com

WELL i HAVE TO ADD 2 ABOUT THE TEETH! and Patella's caesar was a stud dog when I adopted him and that was one of the reason I fixed him too!Even though he is a lot bettr now that he is older 5,Also he is a B so things are just built wrong!And way As for expecting things to pop up from good Correct parents ,they do! Shamus 's parents both have correct teeth he has a UNDERBITE! a major falt!This just came up as his big boy teeth can in so I guess its a crap shoot! even if you do every thing right you can STILL GET PET GRADE PUPS...

I decided to post this link here ... maybe it will help others.. Remember any and every breeding we doing we are held accountable for.... The choices are yours.

www.kndkennels.com/boo.html Meet my honey man..Boo

I can't comment on breeding one way or the other. I chose to have my dogs fixed because I don't want puppies. On the luxating patellas, I can say that it is fixable but it is also expensive. Ratty has had problems with his knee for 3 years and I took him to my vet in NC and that idiot said he had arthritis and to give him 81 mg aspirin once a day. It continued to get worse so I took him to my vet here and had x-rays done to discover that the groove he should have had at birth did not exist. So we opted to fix it. They went in and made a groove and positioned his knee cap correctly. They also found a torn ligament and fixed that while in there. The cost was $1300.00 here in Florida and well worth it. Ratty had a great surgeon and has a fantastic vet. I do admit that the care he needed when he came home was not easy. I slept on the floor with him for 2 weeks so he wouldn't feel so alone since he couldn't get in the bed with us as usual. Phil took four of those nights to give me and my back a break. We had to carry him up and down the steps. It broke my heart to see him like that. Now it is almost 6 weeks later and my boy is walking better than he has in 3 years. Of course there is still more healing time to go but he can go in and out on his own now. At the end of the day his leg still tends to give a little when climbing the steps but it is improving each day. When he can't make it he stands at the steps and cries until I come get him and bring him in or out which ever he needs. 
Fortunately for us, if we get the new house there are no steps for him to have to deal with. My vet said that luxating patellas can happen to any small breed dog. My sister's vet in VA warned her of that when she took her new dog(not a rattie, some kind of poodle mix) in for neutering and said it is possible with all small breeds though it does not always happen. If your dog is not having problems with it now that is good. Ratty's problems didn't show up until he was 8 years old and got really bad in the last year. She may never have a problem with it but then again as she ages it may show up.

Just know that luxating patellas are fixable and if your dog needs the surgery it will not be easy on you but it can be done. I don't think this will help on your breeding question but hope it helps you to understand that luxating patellas are not the end of the world though I don't think I would want to risk the puppies having the same problem. Bless you for being responsible and doing the research before deciding to breed. You take care and I hope all goes well with your pup.

Janie...I'm glad you posted this.   My little Alice who is 9 mos. old has a luxating patella that I just noticed about 2 wks ago.  I am heartbroken for her.  Although she doesn't act like it hurts, it hurts me to see her limping on three legs.  She still runs and plays but at her young age I know it will more that likely give her problems later.   It makes me feel better to actually hear first hand from someone about the surgery.

If there is any chance that this condition can be genetic, it is a good thing to see responsible breeders that test their dogs for it first.  It is a sad thing to see these little ones limping.

I wish I had known earlier for Ratty's sake and I would have had it fixed years ago. My best advice to you is to make an appointment with your vet for x-rays and then you will know how bad it is. Some dogs have this problem but are able to pop the patella back into place. It can be a simple dislocation problem or like Ratty, it could require surgery. I can't say it would be better to fix it while your dog is young because I don't know. I think it was better with Ratty being older because it wasn't so hard to keep him in-active for the first 2 weeks. I don't know how hard it would be to keep a 9 month old in-active but I will say the drugs they are on after surgery during the healing process are pretty potent and keep them sleeping most of time. The first 2 weeks you have to take the dog out on a leash so they don't try to do too much to fast and no jumping or running is allowed. If Alice is limping badly I would go ahead with the x-rays at least after those you would know exactly what you are dealing with. They really can't tell how severe it is without the x-rays though it can be diagnosed without them. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you decide to have it checked out, I would like to know what you find out.

Thank you Janie.  I will let you know.  She only limps every now and then and I really can't afford surgery right now.  I'm going to take her to the vet within the next couple of weeks.  I don't know what to do....I've been so upset about it I haven't been able to talk about it much.  I have ordered her something call Enzymes for pets.  It's treats with glucosamine and antioxidants that's supposed to help lubricate their joints.  I knew Ratty had surgery but I didn't know that was what it was for.  It's encouraging to hear he's doing good and I hope he gets completely healed soon!!

Here is my two cents.

On a dog under 1 year unless he/she is having a patella problem do not let a vet manipulate them. They may cause them to have problems. Let the puppy grow up first.

If the dog is young and not in pain, wait till they are older and have them re-checked.

Rat Terriers are a very long lived breed and don’t mature till 3+ years.

I believe Breeders Choice make a kibble with the supplements already in it.

Also the supplements are available on the internet for much less than the vet.

A site that caters to agility would be a good choice.

When the pups are teething/ear wars their immune/calcium production is at it lowest. Be careful at this time with their jumping from high places.

You are a thoughtful Rat Terrier owner and will have a loving companion for years to come,

Jeff

Thanks for the information Jeff.  I'll check out the supplements and I thought the same thing about the doc manipulating her knee.  I think mine would pop out too if you bent my leg around!  She is not a little puppy though, she is almost 2.

Thanks for the info Jeff.  I think I will wait about taking her to the vet and use the supllements for about a month ans see how she's doing.  

Tinkerbelle's mommy....I hope your baby does good and everything is ok.

I would recommend you not breed her. In fact, I'd ease off and stop reinforcing the jumping activity due to the fact she has already been diagnosed with the problem.

As with Golden's, orthopedic problems tend to be polygenetic in occurrence, meaning many genes can influence the condition. Two dysplastic dogs can produce normal pups, as can 2 OFA excellents produce dysplastic pups. As a breeder, imho, you should make every effort to reduce the chance of the condition being passed on. While her offspring may not develop the condition, the potential is there for their conditions to actually be worse than the mothers.