My female had her litter of pups Oct 2 , 2007 and is now in heat again...I think she got bred but am not completely sure. My question is....Is it too soon after the first litter for her to be bred? I am going to keep her away from the male now that I know. But if she did get bred will there be ill effects because her last litter was born only 4 months ago?

Any help would be great. Thank you all

I don't know about dogs but I do know horse breeders often do this with mares.  BUT it does take a lot out of the mother so I would make sure she gets extra nutrition so she doesn't get too run down.  (We did this with mares) I would think if she is taken care of the puppies would be ok...but it's just a guess.

Wow, bad guess....apparently dogs are different.  Personally, if she isn't pregnant, I would get her spayed. 

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeding.html#frequency

Frequency of Breeding

Ideally, a bitch should only be bred every other year and she should not be bred much before two years of age. The season closest to the second birthday is a good one to start with; certainly no earlier than this. In some breeds, you may need to wait one more season before beginning. By this time, she is better prepared mentally for having puppies than she would have been with her first few seasons. Her physical growth is complete and pregnancy at this point won't endanger her health, provided that she is healthy to begin with.

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It's important, however, to keep the frequency of breeding low. Even at maximum, you want to allow at least one unbred season between breedings. This allows your bitch to rest and regain her strength. A bitch that whelps too often will produce weaker puppies more likely to die, and the repeated pregnancies are pretty rough on her, too

The advice I see on this board is amazing...

You are NOT breeding for all the right reasons,,, one, you do not have the time,,, you had no idea your dog was even in heat. You do zero testing yet claim you can produce healthy puppies. How?

Rat Terriers are not always a healthy breed. Good breeders are testing their stock,,, they are waiting until their dogs turn two before they breed them. They are not breeding them twice before they are 18 months old. If the breeders you know are doing this then no they are not good breeders.

Do you alter your pet puppies you sell. If you are bored one day... calculate the numbers when "breeders" like you breed back to back litters and sell those puppies (intact) to other "breeders" like you,,,, who also breed carelessly,,,, calculate in 5 years how many more untested, intact  puppies there are,,, and tell me again that people cannot find rat terriers.

I know you have the best intentions,,, and I am not trying to sound harsh,,, but shelters in America are FULL up with puppies made with the very best intentions. And before people say that those dogs come from GOOD breeders,,, think again..... as good breeders microchip their puppies. If one of our babies goes to a shelter or a vet as lost,,, we are called via phone and email within minutes... 

You NEVER give calcium supliments to a pregnant bitch,,, you will CAUSE problems. You give calcium AFTER the babies are born.

Dog diapers will NOT stop a female from being bred,, they are sold to stop dogs from bleeding in the house,, not as birth control.

If the people you know cannot find good breeders they are not looking hard enough. What they cannot find is good breeders that sell their dogs for 100 dollars. They want puppies for free. Then they breed them so their kids can see puppies.... take the kids to a shelter,,

I know people on here support Rat Terrier Rescue,,,, great,, so do we. But ask Ratbone OR Resq if they feel that selling puppies intact is helping them or supporting them..

Breeding (properly) is not a business or a service to the public to supply puppies.

Ken Jones

www.kndkennels.om

Ken, that was an excellent post in my opinion.

I thought I remembered them saying before they neuter early.  They neuter ar 9 weeks.  From their site:

All PET puppies are spayed or neutered prior to leaving Your puppy will be spayed or neutered at the age of 9 weeks old. It will then stay here at KnD until it is 12 weeks old to insure it's health prior to leaving. .

 That's horrible. JMO

Yes we spay/neuter all pet puppies at 9 weeks....

Why is that HORRIBLE? Are all the "pet puppies" breeding and filling shelters and all the puppies beling euthanized not worse. Which is the lesser of what you must consider 2 evils?

Pet people with all good intentions .."so my kids can experience birth" "my neighbor wants one JUST LIKE MINE" "my dog is a male, I don't have to worry about puppies" 

NOPE not one of my pet babies will leave here intact. Contracts might as well be printed on toilet paper. That is about what they are worth!

I agree 100%!!

Not all vets will. Ours does at 9 weeks. He has done A LOT!! He has even done so for Ratbone and ResQ. He is a FIRM believer as we are in spaying and neutering your pets!  

The point Ken and are trying to make is, that puppy mills are appalling and total HE!! for babies but pet people breeding pet quality dogs are also contributing to the situation.

Ken and are very dedicated to our dogs. They are a life style for us. We love this breed and yeah we have issues arise. We want to see this breed improve. We would love to see a happy healthy  Rat Terrier in the future. It can't happen if the pet quality puppies are being bred.

I apologize for the use of the word "horrible".  That was incendiary and uncalled for.

I do know you mean well.  And I do understand that shelters and rescue organizations feel they need to do this early spay/neuter.  I just didn't realize that breeders were now doing it as a regular thing....logic says that can't be the best thing physically for them.  I would think that as a breeder you would use the contract stipulating the buyer gets the dog altered  at 6 months.  I would also think that as a breeder you thoroughly screen your potential buyers so that you choose people who are responsible and will follow through.

Question.  I know with horses that if I sell a weanling colt to a buyer and I don't want that colt to be a stud then the registration papers are pending until the buyer gelds that colt, usually around a year old.  In other words the breed registry won't ever recognize that colt as a stallion so no mares bred by him will produce registered foals.  He will only be registered as a gelding.

Is there no way to do something like this with UKC or whatever registry you're using (for both sexes)?  That way you are assured that no one would breed your puppies for money at least.

Trust me, not all breeders are doing it.. we are. A few of our friends that breed/show are also as passionate about it as we are and they doing ESN too.

"logic says that can't be the best thing physically for them" In all that we have done and our vet has  done ( we asked him) we/he has not seen any ill effects. This is whats best for our babies.

YOU BET YOUR BUTT we screen. But, don't you think that puppy mills know all the right answers? ESN is the only way to know for sure. 

I know too many that have had contracts and they truly are not worth spit! I will not trust them nor ANYONE I sell too excpet my very best friends and thats only because I know their practices. 

I cannot speak of UKC. It would be nice. It might be one way to slow it all down. BUT! I know of registries that have been started because they (breeders) didn't agree with UKC or AKC. So what they HEY.. I'll start my own. Sadly the general public doesn't know the difference..they see A REGISTRY .  

Agree 100%.  I too early spay/neuter and my vet also supports this.  When my pups are spayed/neutered between 9 and 10 weeks, they will go out and play like it never happened...when my older dogs are spayed/neutered, it takes a few days to recover.  I have done MANY early spay/neuters with NO issues.  No pet dog will EVER leave AdamsAcres NOT spayed/neutered.  Also agree with everything other issue you hit on. 

I work too hard on bettering the breed to "accept" issues like the one posted.  I too started out pretty much like this, but heeded the advice/concern for the more educated than myself and am thrilled that I did.  I can't tell you the joy when your OFA tests come back great and you see pups of yours just outdoing themselves not only in the show ring, but also in the agility and other performance rings.

You want your kids to see pups born?  Go to a shelter, and then watch them have their babies, then watch as staff pull the babies IMMEDIATELY off the mommas to let them just die (usually within 10 - 24 hours) in a separate room.   How wonderful is THAT?

Also, if you want to see pups born, be ready to bottle feed around the clock, vet bills, and lots of hard work.  If it's simple, "ya jest ain't doin it right!"

I hope the original poster doesn't look at this as an "attack" yet postings from several "seasoned" breeders (regardless of breed, it's all the same issue) but just some people who are truly passionate about doing the right thing and trying to "train" those who just don't "get it".  Listen/Read/Learn and become a part of the solution, not the problem.  Good Luck.

Kate is good friend of ours and she know of what she speaks.

Hey! Kate...Did you come up with this?   "Listen/Read/Learn and become a part of the solution, not the problem." I like it..