I second Nora.  Geez.......

But I do want to add that stating that to afford a dog it has to be from an inexperienced breeder who doesn't put the testing into the dogs that they should makes no sense to me.  I know my issue is with so called breeders that are breeding stock they they KNOW have issues that should not be passed onand ones that are too young to be bred yet.  Different types, bad patellas, health issues that are genetic.... All of these should not be passed on in the breed.  And because you can go out and by a pup for practically nothing out of 2 dogs that were bred just because?  You could very well get a healthy pup, but you could also very well get those genetic issues passed on to the pup that would eventually cost the owner more in the long run.  If the research and time is put into breeding a dog by the owner, I am okay with that.   They don't have to have champion bloodlines but they DO have to be healthy and free of bad genetic traits.  Spending a little more up front may save ou more in the long run.  Breeding is not a money game.  If someone is on it to make $ then they should find another hobby.  Breeding should be based on the joy of bettering the breed, passing along desired traits and weeding out undesired ones.  You don't have to be a huge breeder with lots of litters but in my mind you do need to do the work and put in the effort to make sure everything is in place before you leap.  The problem so much around here lately is we have to many not doing these simple things.

And also to add that if I remember correctly this post was also posted at the time we had a large influx of "breeders" asking questions about breeding their dogs who had NO CLUE what they were doing.  Pups who were way to young and people who could barely type a post, much less make sure they were breeding dogs worthy of breeding.

       It's one of "yours" Lance

OKAY - LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR

1.  GWACIE -- I WANTED TO MAKE THE NECKLACE BECAUSE I WANTED TO SUPPORT RESCUE AND SO THE "MAKING IT IN PAIN' REFERENCE WAS TRYING TO ENFORCE TO EVERYONE THAT I DO SUPPORT OF RESCUE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE THAT INCLINATION.  I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH RESCUING DOGS LONG BEFORE RAT TERRIER. COM.  EVEN EXSISTED.  REMEMBER, I WORKED IN VETERINARY MEDICINE FOR YEARS AND WE DID RESCUE WORK.  I CONTINUED ON DOING IT ON MY OWN IN OUR SMALL TOWN - NOT RATTIES BECAUSE I LOVE 'EM ALL.  I AM ALSO PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR RESCUING LOTS OF CATS, BECAUSE THEY ARE SWEET, LIVING, BREATHING, CREATURES TOO.

2.. MY POINT IS THIS POST WENT TOO FAR AND WAS AN EDITORIAL ON BREEDING WHICH TURNED INTO AN EDITORIAL MOSTLY AGAINST BREEDING PINNED AT THE TOP OF A BREEDING SECTION.  THERE ARE GOOD "BACKYARD" BREEDERS WHO MAY DO IT SO THEIR CHILDREN CAN EXPERIENCE THE BIRTHING PROCESS, OR BECAUSE THEY WANT ANOTHER PUP FROM THEIR SPECIAL DOG -- THEY DO THE RESEARCH, THE GET THE VET CARE, THE DO A GOOD JOB.  I HAVE SEEN THAT FIRST HAND ALSO -- AGAIN WORKING IN VETERINARY MEDICINE AND THEY USUALLY DON'T MAKE ONE CENT.  BREEDING A LITTER OF PUPS FOR YOUR CHILDREN IS NOT NECESSARILY THE WRONG REASON TO BRED IF YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK.  BREEDING TO EARN BUCKS MAY BE.

AND SORRY, BUT THE LAST LINE IN YOUR POST TRACEY - BEGGING PEOPLE TO RECONSIDER BREEDING AND TO ADOPT COMES ACROSS AS ANTI-BREEDING WHETHER YOU INTENDED IT TO OR NOT.

***AGAIN I ASK THIS QUESTION.  ARE WE A SITE WHERE PEOPLE CAN COME FOR INFOMATION, SO IF THEY WANT TO BREED THEY CAN FIND GOOD INFORMATION TELLING THEM HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY WITHOUT THE GUILT TRIP?  OR ARE WE NOW JUST A RESCUE ONLY SITE?  MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME -- LET'S JUST DO AWAY WITH THE BREEDING FORUM ALL TOGETHER.

SO I JUST ASK SOMONE IN AUTHORITY TO LET ME KNOW WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS SITE NOW IS.  ARE WE A ROUNDED SITE, HERE TO WELCOME AND CELEBRATE THE BREED, SEND PEOPLE IN DIRECTIONS FOR INFORMATIVE ANSWERS TO THEIR QUESTIONS WITHOUT BEATING THEM UP FOR  ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS.  ARE DOES RAT-TERRIER.COM NOW HAVE AN OFFICIAL POLICY ON BREEDING AND RESCUE (AS OUTLINED BY THE PINNED MODERATOR ARTICLE ABOVE)  AND ANYONE THAT STRAYS FROM THAT POLICY SHOULD LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR ANSWER TO THEIR QUESIONS.  AGAIN, ANSWERS NOT EDITORIALS.  (AND YES, EVERYONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION - A PINNED MODERATOR ARTICLE  APPEARS AS A SITE EDITORIAL AND NOT AN INDIVIDUAL OPINION)  JUST ANSWER THAT QUESTION FOR ME PLEASE.  I KNOW WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE EVERYONE IS ON INDVIDUALLY SO I REALLY DON'T NEED EVERYONE'S OPIPION, I KNOW YOU ALL WELL ENOUGH I ALREADY KNOW WHAT IT IS - I JUST WANT MY QUESTION ANSWERED.  THANK YOU.***

Oh lord. This whole thing makes me very sad. Compared to alot of you I am still fairly new here. That being said I feel confident in saying, Jan, this just is not like you. I have NEVER felt that RT.com is against anyone buying a puppy. We simply want to educate the general public on "responsible" breeding. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, we do have a moderator forum but this is not a moderator issue -- this is an opinion issue.    Tracey's post is her opinion not the site opinion, unless someone forgot to tell me.  She posted her opinion and I am posting mine. 

Because I am a moderator, does that mean I can't have a differing opinion with another moderator?  Moderators give their opinion publically all the time - I can't?

However, due to what appears to be huge philosophical differences with the tone of this site, I am getting ready to stop being a moderator.

Writing my resignation as we speak.   What!!!!   I hear a lot of shout of joy out there.  Don't shout too loudly - not leaving the site,  just don't want to be officially connected anymore.

In the words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"   

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and move on. This is an issue that even among friends won't be resolved. Irregardless of the issue, I know that nobody meant to criticize nor hurt anyone.

Ok, I hesitate to even write this on this thread because I feel it is a new topic ,but maybe this thread will just go away magically and I think that would not be such a bad idea...Maybe there could just be a topic header that states the site officially wants people to be responsible breeders before they post here.

It is true that there is a definite negative tone on here about breeding.  Go back and look at every post of someone who has had puppies and when they originally post, things turn ugly.  Most people are discouraged from breeding and maybe that's not a bad thing, most people should not be breeders.  But, if you want information on breeding your rat terrier or to talk with other breeders, it would be nice to have a forum where you can get good information...not opinion, but good solid advice. 

After, the way that Bailey Duke and Gracie Mae were treated...I am so glad that Holly stayed on the site and has become a great member.  I remember feeling very sorry for her because she came on here happy and ready to be welcomed and had to face a lot of negativity and the breeding had already taken place.   After the way Donna was treated, there was no way that I was going to post about my Tinkerbelle.  But, I did privately let some members know and they encouraged me to come foreward and said that they would support me....and they did.  My news has been met with very positive feedback and I do notice that some of the opponents of my breeding have not posted at all, which is fine...I didn't want my news to start up a new fight.  I am a first time breeder and there are some things that I wanted to talk to other seasoned breeders about.  Jan encouraged me to come to the breeders forum to post my questions.  I did tell her that the breeders forum was really an anti-breeding forum unless you are breeding champions or show quality.  It was when she responded to my post that she saw this thread.  I know that Tracey means well.  I completely support Ratbone Rescue and have given money, attended the Jamboree and helped with a transport, but that doesn't mean that I didn't still want to breed my dog.  Because of this site, I came within 24 hours of spaying her, but then my heart kicked in.  I bought Tinkerbelle with the idea that I would one day breed her.  I have people all of the time telling me how beautiful she is and asking if I will breed her.  I have puppies already spoken for.  I was told by 3 vets  now that luxating patella's are genetic in all small breeds...you can try to breed them out, but due to the small, fine bone structure, it is always going to be a problem with small breeds.  I have had breeders tell me that just because a dog is OFA certified that does not mean that their puppies won't have a luxating patella.  Also, just because a parent dog has luxating patella's does not mean that the offspring will have them.  It's all a crapshoot.  You do the best you can to get the best you can.  Tinkerbelle only has luxating patella's when the vet manipulates her knee.  She does not have the 3 legged skip.  I was  also told by a breeder here not to let the vet manipulate a puppies knee before age 1 as they can cause it  slip when they are young.  So, if you don't let the vet check it, How do you know that your puppies are all clear?  Like I said you do your best and the rest is up to God.  There are excellent breeders who spend a fortune on testing and showing to get the highest quality dogs and I imagine that their dogs are expensive...I'm not saying they do it for money, but I had no intention of showing my dog, so I"m not going to pay $1000 for a dog.  I support them on what they do.  I don't think badly of them and I hope that they don't think badly of me.  I"m sure that they all started somewhere with some beloved pet. 

I am doing the best I can by my dog.  She is getting excellent pre-natal care, I am doing everything that I can to keep her healthy.  I did try to find a stud with good quality patellas and a good temperment.  I can only pray that my puppies will be healthy because at some point it is out of my hands, but I'm doing everything I can to educate myself on breeding.  This is a site that I've been a member of for almost 2 years and I came very close to not posting that my dog was pregnant and keeping it a secret.  I did not try to find a stud on here even though there probably were some very high quality studs on this site...I was too afraid to post.  So, Lance I just want you to know Jan is not totally off base.  The site is hard on anyone asking information on breeding.  As Bratt said in a post, if you need to ask a question, you shouldn't be here...that kind of sums it up.  If you have questions, don't come here. 

I'm sorry for all of the fuss.  I am sorry that some of you think I'm a "backyard breeder".  I had a dream and I wanted to pursue it and try to become a breeder.  I wanted to start small and build upward.  Now, I think I'm just going to keep a boy and I'll neuter him and I'll spay Tinkerbelle.  If I am ever inclined to breed again,  I'll go buy some show quality champions and start big instead of small, but I would think you would need a lot of money to get started that way...I bet that most breeders don't start that way.  But, that is just my opinion.

Carol

It's a great site to post pictures and have fun, but the breeder section is really just for the breeders to show their latest achievements.

Katie's Mom, I surely wish you the best in whatever endeavor life holds for you next. I am glad you will be stopping in because your Katie Scarlett is a pretty dog and I enjoy all your posts.

I am try to stay off the whole subject of "breeding" as my opionion is pretty known on the subject whether responsible or not. I still enjoy puppies and all that comes with them, it's not their fault so many of them come into the world. That being said I think with so many out there needing homes, anyone brining more into the world just works against that. My opionion, just as breeders have theirs. Will we ever all agree, probably not, but that is why there is freedom of speech. I never post to hurt anyones feelings only to express my views.

Good luck and I hope you pop back now and then.

Hey Lance, do you mean the yellow alert button up in the area the "edit" button used to be......Oh, Oh

Yep.  Oh, and for those of you who never figured out why the "edit" button went away?  If we had never had the edit button, this entire drama might not be going on right now.

As I have said repeatedly, the responses in Donna's thread were the LAST straw for me.  This has been going on for a while.  Many months before Donna's post.  And yes, we have all lost loved one -- few of us have lived with a critically ill child, spent 5 months constantly at the hospital with him only to watch him bleed to death before your eyes.  It has been less than a year!   Honestly, some people on this site show more sympathy for the loss of a dog.  Consider the circumstances.