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Subject: Selective Aggression
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Author Messages
kaet


Newbie
Newbie
06/20/2007 5:31 PM  

Wolf is a smart dog and quickly figured out that my husband is the Alpha and I'm second in command.  He and my eight-year-old son are great buddies and hang together all day.  However, Wolf goes insane if he perceives Charles is somehow coming in between him and food, not his dog food, but anything else.

For example, today puppy wanted up as I was sitting here at the computer.  I also had a tuna sandwich.  The dog hadn't been given any and hadn't really paid much attention.  When Charles came into the room and approached me, Wolf was growling and snarling.  In another example, I somehow managed to tip over the bag of doggie bakery treats and the last one fell out of the bag.  Wolf had it within a nano second.  He carried it under the rocking chair and started to chow down.  I went by the chair many times.  My husband did, too.  Whenever Charles came within six feet, Wolf would be on the defensive.  All Charles has to do is say the dog's name and Wolf startes snarling.

Charles has finally learned not to tease the dog.  He also understands the pack order and that he has to let Wolf know that he's above him.  He has stopped biting Charles for the most part, and Charles has stopped getting on the floor with the dog and curling into a ball and letting the dog jump on his back...which of course is an act of submission.

We chose to take Wolf out of all the puppies in the litter because his mother had started to attack him, and he had to be separated from the rest of the dogs in the house.  They also had him on a puppy food that he couldn't eat.  The "breeder" said she mixed it with wet food, and he had no trouble chowing down, but we found he couldn't eat it unless we soaked it in hot water.  That's all over now, but I wonder if it has anything to do with the behavior?  My 20-year-old cat was found and rescued as a kitten when he was almost starved to death.  Twenty years later, he will still rip into a bag of bread and chew it up because he was living behind a dumpster at a restaurant, and he had apparently survived by eating bread out of a bag that had fallen.

I'd appreciate any advice you can give.  We're going to start training classes at Petsmart in a week or two with Charles as the one doing the training.  I'm hoping that will help establish order.

Mitzy's Mom


PAWesome
PAWesome
06/21/2007 7:27 AM  
Interesting, it could be the past experience with not getting enough food....I've had rescued cats that act like yours. It definitely seems as if he considers Charles an equal (a litter mate) and doesn't respect him as much as you and your husband.

Question - what was your son doing to tease Wolf?

I'm sure the others will have some advice for you. The training classes sound like a good idea.

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org
Pics of my current fosters:
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
06/21/2007 8:11 AM  

Anytime a dog is acting aggressive; there is a reason for it. One of the first steps a professional dog trainer or behaviorist will do when dealing with an aggressive dog is find out what is triggering the aggression. There can be many reasons for this... reasons which usually make no sense in our structured, human world... but reasons that are certainly justifiable in the pack structure of a dog's world.

This canine behavior class I'm taking is SOOO interesting! We've talked about dog aggression and how it's like a snowball going downhill. It starts very small and insignificant and quickly becomes huge and intimidating. It is very important that we try to limit the number of aggressive incidents that occur. Limit access to anything that triggers the aggression.

A dog living in a domestic situation needs to understand that its human pack members are at the top of the social scale. We need to be strong leaders in the dog’s eyes; otherwise the dog will develop unwanted behaviors. A dog does not have to be physically punished in order to learn that we are the pack leaders. A more desirable way to establish our position is to control what is important to the dog. One of the things that is important to a dog is eating.

Try taking a portion of food and your dog must ‘sit’ or ‘come’ in order to get a titbit. Nothing in life is free. Make demands of your dog in order for it to receive affection, walks or games. Demands made on you, e.g. pawing or pushing at you, barking for attention, etc. by your dog should be ignored by your turning away or even leaving the room. You are the “top dog” and demands are not made on you!

If the humans are eating and you don't wish to share with your dog, then crate him until you are finished... thereby eliminating the opportunity for him to become aggressive with anyone. Oftentimes elmiinating opportunities is much better than having to correct the behavior AFTER it happens. 

Good luck to you !!! Please keep us posted.

Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
06/21/2007 9:57 AM  

The Nothing-in-Life-is-Free approach has worked wonders for us with Lady.  As I mentioned in my introductory post, we adopted Lady from a shelter when she was about two and a half years old.  Since she had been picked up as a lost dog, we had no information about her past.  We've had her a little over five years, and she's the light of my life.

What I did not mention is that, for awhile, we weren't sure that we would be able to keep her, because she began to behave aggressively towards us and others, particularly children, almost immediately (biting). Fast forward -- after working with a trainer who specializes in aggressive dogs as well with as a dog behaviorist,  we have a polite, reasonably well-behaved dog.   These professionals trained us as much as they trained Lady.  It was a very difficult period, but we got through it because we were committed to changing our own behavior as well as Lady's. 

I, in particular, viewed Lady as my surrogate child.  I had to accept the fact that, for this particular dog, with her particular temperament (variously described as being "a pushy little bitch" and a "social climber", I had to behave in a certain way in order to curb her dominance issues and create a stable pack member.  In other words, I really had to become a leader.  As much as I would love to cuddle with her and have her sleep on the bed with us, for example, allowing her to do that is not what she needs -- it just creates confusion regarding her place in the pack order --so I have had to develop the self-discipline to give Lady what she needs as a pack-animal rather than what I need as a human.   Honestly, I feel like I am a better person as a result of undergoing this process.

We use the NILIF method 24/7.  I am not exaggerating.  Lady works for everything she wants, whether it is food ("dog-money," as the behaviorist describes it), affection, going outside to do her business, etc.  For instance, she must sit  or lie down politely before she gets her meals or a treat.  She does not get affection until she sits politely and waits for me to give it to her.  She does not go in or out of the house until I give her the okay.  She follows behind me when we go for walks.  

It's really not as draconian as it may sound; it's more a set of habits -- rules, boundaries, and limitations, to quote Caesar Millan.  I highly recommend it.  It know it saved Lady's life, because if we had not been able to control her dominance issues, then we would have had to return her to the shelter, which probably would have euthanized her.   The mere thought makes me shudder!

But back to selective aggression.  As we went through this process, it became clear that Lady grudgingly saw me as the alpha.  I say grudgingly because it's a never ending battle with her -- give her an inch and she'll try to take a mile -- so I try never to give her an inch.  Sorry, I'm digressing again.  Lady started lunging at my partner whenever my partner approached me.  We called the behaviorist.  The behaviorist's theory was that, since I did all the dog care at that point, Lady saw me as a very important resource (i.e., the source of her food and All Good Things) and my partner as a peer or possibly lower member of the pack.  The behaviorist suggested that my partner start feeding Lady and walking her, as well as making sure that she also did not behave in a way the dog would interpret as submissive.  These techniques seemed to work, because Lady now behaves appropriately with my partner.

Best of luck to you!  Remember, things won't change over night, but if you hang in there, the prospects are good.  We're sending supportive thoughts your way.

LM

 


More cowbell!
rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
06/21/2007 10:11 AM  
LadysMom.... you have no idea how refreshing it is to read your post !! The time and money you invested in Lady paid off in that you now have a well-behaved dog whom I assume you can probably take anywhere. There is a HUGE difference between a behaviorist and a trainer... however your best trainers are both! I know several trainers who train every dog the same way... with the same "tried and true" methods... with little concern or realization about a dog's temperment and what triggers certain behaviors in certain dogs. The thing I admire the most about my friend who has been a professional trainer for almost 30 years is that before he does ANY training with a dog, he spends MUCH time evaluating the dog. I have never seen him raise a hand or physically "punish" a dog in any way. He's amazing... and can ALWAYS get the best out of any dog he trains regardless of their temperment. He now farms out his obedience work, and specializes in police dogs, drug/bomb dogs... and to see these dogs "work" is a sight to behold!
Anyways... understanding a dog's behavior is something I'm really getting into and the reason why I'm taking this canine behavior course. It's so interesting!!
My hat is off to you and I'm thrilled that your commitment paid off !!
Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
06/21/2007 10:57 AM  

Nora,

Thanks for your kind words.  We could not have done it without a lot of great help.  Kind of like you describe, our "trainer" was really interested in canine behavior and saw obedience training as more of a tool to help establish proper pack order rather than a cure in and of itself.  I'll give Melanie McElroy/Taurus Training a plug for all you in the Austin area:  http://www.taurusdogtraining.com/

We started taking Lady to doggie daycare at Taurus well before I knew that Melanie owned the place -- she was a college friend of mine with whom I had lost touch.  She had gone on to law school after college, but found a new career in dog training when she went to her now-husband William for help with her own aggressive dogs.  Melanie and her staff are great and really care about the dogs.  We miss them now that we've moved away from Austin.

LM

 

 


More cowbell!
Mitzy's Mom


PAWesome
PAWesome
06/21/2007 11:38 AM  
Ladysmom - thank you for sharing your story! Lukcily you found a good trainer who DID care about canine behavior diffrerences. But also you and your partner made a committment to being "trained" yourselves and following through with what the trainer taught you - and this probably did save Lady's life as most shelters won't even accept an agressive dog. You are a wonderful example of responsible dog owners.

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org
Pics of my current fosters:
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
Nat


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
06/21/2007 12:20 PM  
Ladysmom....thank you so much for the Taurus info! Turns out I work within walking distance of the McNeil location. I will for sure give them a try! Miss Cookie needs some training.

xoxo,
-Nat

http://www.NatInAustin.com
http://www.myspace.com/cookieinaustin











Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
06/21/2007 12:32 PM  

Thanks! 

We still have issues, of course.  She's usually just fine around us, but we are very attuned to her body language and can see potential aggressiveness coming.  We know when to step in and redirect her.  To the untrained eye, she can move from seemingly fine to aggressive in a split second, but really, she's been sending signals for a longer time.  Also, she's so cute that people are drawn to her, just as I was, and it's hard for them to believe sometimes that she's capable of biting.  I am perfectly comfortable taking her out in most public spaces, but that's only after learning that it's okay to politely but firmly tell someone that no, he/she can't pet her, if the situation warrants it. 

Nat, you're welcome.  Hope it works out for you.  The two-week  "boot camp" they do is worth every penny.

LM


More cowbell!
Nat


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
06/21/2007 12:45 PM  
LM...I just looked at the Taurus training method; are there any other options besides having to leave her boarded there for 2 weeks??? I couldn't handle it.

xoxo,
-Nat

http://www.NatInAustin.com
http://www.myspace.com/cookieinaustin











rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
06/21/2007 12:46 PM  
Dog communication refers to movements and sounds dogs use to send signals to other dogs, other animals, and humans. Dog communication comes in a variety of forms. Dogs use certain movements of their bodies and body parts and different vocalizations to send signals. There are a number of basic ways a dog can communicate. These are movements of the ears, eyes and eyebrows, mouth, head, tail, and entire body, as well as barks, growls, whines and whimpers, and howls.

A dog will always communicate before exhibiting any type of aggressive behavior. Like LadysMom said... the untrained eye simply doesn't recognize it.

Nat -- GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Am totally thrilled to hear you that you'll be looking into some training for Cookie !!
Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
06/21/2007 1:07 PM  

Nat,

As far as I know, they only have the 2-week boot camp, but I have been away from Austin for nearly four years now, so my information isn't very current.  I remember that Melanie really preferred the boot camp approach, because she had found it to work the best.

I empathize with your reluctance to part with your sweetie for two whole weeks -- I found it hard, too -- but your pup would be in goods hands.  You might convince Melanie to let you come for a visit on the intervening weekend, if you are really desperate to see your baby.  At the end of the two weeks, Melanie will work with both you and the dog (she's really training you at that point).

You can do it!

LM


More cowbell!
kaet


Newbie
Newbie
06/21/2007 1:33 PM  
Hi everyone.

Thank you for all your valuable information and sharing Lady's story. It's helped a lot.

Mary Beth asked what Charles was doing to tease Wolf. Both he and his father would try and grab the dog's muzzle but pull away just in time to avoid a chomp (usually). He would also try and take stuff away from him.

After reading a post yesterday about food aggression and the method of dropping treats in the food bowl to let the dog understand that humans being near the food bowl is a good thing, I wanted to see what Wolf would do if Charles gave him the goodie. 99% of the time, goodies come from me, and I make Wolf sit for them. Giving treats around here is just a matter of course. My African Gray, Hannibal, eats table food and gets handfed nuts and stuff throughout the day. I've always given my cat goodies, and after 20 years, I can't take them away from the oldster.

Okay. Back to what where I was going with this. Wolf saw Charles give the cat a bite of chicken left over from fajitas. He then gave the bird a chunk. He let Wolf in and gave him a little bit. Instead of chewing and swallowing right there as he would have done with us, Wolf ran with it under the bed to his storage area.

I'll definitely get them enrolled in training classes. I also think that from now on, all good, yummy things will come from Charles. Perhaps then Wolf will get the hierachy and Charles will get a taste of having control over the dog.

Sound reasonable?? Thank you again. I'll keep you posted.

Kim
ideetz


Rattie
Rattie
06/22/2007 4:53 PM  

Some of the responses to this post have hit home for me as I'm having a bit of a similar "selected aggression" problem.

While in bed, if my boyfriend's hand comes anywhere near me (and I mean anywhere) Irie will snap at it.

I'm not sure if this is a protective thing or if she sees him as competition for rank order or what.

I feel terrible putting her in her crate at night because she's often crated during the day while I'm at work and it just feels like a lot of crate time. Plus she cries (VERY loud, high-pitched cry) if I put her in there while I'm still in the house for any length of time.

Her aggression has definitely gotten worse over the course of the last month - it used to take a lot more to set her off, but now it's everything.

I'm just a little unsure what to do. Should I just crate her when we're being intimate (wow - that's not something I'd normally put in a post), or should I always crate her when I'm sleeping, should I try squirting her with a spray bottle if she snaps at him? Does my boyfriend need to establish dominance? Any of the above? All of the above?

Anyone been through this or have suggestions?

Thanks!
Ingrid (and Irie)

 

 

Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
06/22/2007 5:30 PM  

Hmmm . . . difficult situation.  Here are some random thoughts:

You might think about not allowing him on the bed at all, or at the very least, only by invitation.  And don't invite him up unless he'll also get off on your command.  For Lady, the bed is the Holy Grail and being allowed on it seems to encourage her delusions of grandeur.  She sleeps in her crate at night but at other times gets to sleep on her doggie bed.

Getting a dog to accept staying off the bed after he's been allowed on it is challenging, but if you stick to your guns, in time he will adjust.  Ignore any whining.  Remember, whining and pawing are likely to get worse before they get better -- it's called an "extinction burst."  The dog will ratchet up any demanding behavior when being denied what he wants.  If you give in then, you're toast.  However, if you can ride it out (earplugs), he'll eventually give up.

It's helped us to have a doggie bed in just about every room in the house.  That way, Lady has her designated spot in every room where we spend time.    It's her own special spot, but it's also on the floor, which places her in a more submissive position than a person who is sitting on the couch or in a chair, lying on the bed, etc. 

Do you think your BF is behaving in ways which encourage your dog to think he's submissive?  If so, you might have him read something like Patricia McConnell's pamphlet on establishing oneself as the alpha. 

How much exercise is your dog getting?  A tuckered out dog is less likely to become aggressive and more receptive to appropriate correction, in my experience. 

Hopes this helps!

LM

 


More cowbell!
rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
06/22/2007 6:00 PM  

For the time-being, do not allow Irie in the bed. Every time Irie growls at your boyfriend, you both should get up and leave the room without saying a word, closing the door behind you. Not only will this stop reinforcing Irie's aggression; it will result in just the opposite of what the dog intended. Taking away something good, something the dog wants, as a consequence of an inappropriate behavior is known as "negative punishment." This type of punishment is often more effective, and certainly more humane, than "positive punishment," which entails adding something bad (yelling, hitting, leash correction) to get the behavior to stop. While positive punishment may sometimes work to stop a behavior, it is seldom used correctly and often does more harm than good, especially when dealing with aggression. In this particular case, any physical punishment or even harsh verbal reprimands will only cause more animosity toward your boyfriend.

Reinforce these lessons by asking Irie to go to his bed and giving him a kong or hollow bone stuffed with peanut butter or Cheez Whiz when you and your BF cuddle. Not only will this keep your dog occupied; he'll soon realize that great things happen for him when the two of you snuggle.



While trying to eliminate Irie's aggression toward your boyfriend, it's a good idea to work on improving their relationship. Ask your boyfriend to feed Irie his dinner, take him for walks, and play with him. He should also spend some time training Irie to perform basic commands (sit, down, come, stay) and tricks (shake, spin, roll over, speak, go to your bed), using extra special food rewards such as hot dogs, chicken, or cheese. Remember, the way to a dog's heart is through his stomach. With this type of positive reinforcement, it won't be long before Irie changes the way he feels about your boyfriend. And if he likes your boyfriend, your dog will be less likely to become upset by your closeness.

Reinforce these lessons by asking Irie to go to his bed and giving him a Kong Toy or hollow bone stuffed with peanut butter, Cheese Wiz, or liverwurst when you and your beau cuddle. Not only will this keep your dog occupied; he'll soon realize that great things happen for him when the two of you snuggle.

Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
07/06/2007 11:02 AM  
Just bumping this thread up for jingebri.

More cowbell!
jingebri


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
07/06/2007 11:30 AM  
Thanks for bumping it up Ladysmom. I have read a lot of valuable info from this thread.

-Jen-
mama to Izzy
jingebri


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
07/06/2007 11:30 AM  
Thanks for bumping it up Ladysmom. I have read a lot of valuable info from this thread.

-Jen-
mama to Izzy
Ladysmom


Ratterific
Ratterific
07/06/2007 12:47 PM  
You're welcome and good luck! Izzy's a cutie-pie, btw . . .

LM

More cowbell!
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