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Subject: He just got fixed and he is more aggressive than ever!
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rattie510


Newbie
Newbie
07/22/2008 7:31 PM  

Our 10-month old rat terrier has been showing some troubling sings of aggression in the past month, even since getting neutered over a week ago. We adopted him when he was about four months old and have done our best to socialize him, always taking him out to the park, meeting other dogs, and exposing him to a lot of people. He was a little fiesty at first and used to bite a lot  but we seemed to get him out of the habit by startling him, making loud noises when he would bite, and giving him a chew toy. For months he got along with strangers just fine and never tried to bite. He is still generally fine around other dogs and cats (he lives with a german shepherd/border collie mix and a cat) but has become aggresive towards people, especially in the past month or so.

He has become hostile towards visitors, barking uncontrollably when they come to the porch, especially into the house, and has more recently begun to snap at strangers as well as friends of ours in public even though he never did this before. This snapping is really troubling to us. He is a sweetheart with us but we think he is becoming very defensive and territorial. If he keeps it up we will simply have to find a new home for him because we can't take him around our friends and family, and fear he will bite someone, god forbid it be a child. We do not know what to do. He has taken basic training so far. We thought after having him neutered he might mellow out a bit, but maybe its too soon to expect changes? He seems to sniff people out at first in many cases, and just when you think he is okay with someone he starts barking and snapping.

We love him very much and want to do whatever it takes to fix this problem. We simply want him to accept other people and stop the snapping. Please help!

Yukon Cornelius


Ratastic
Ratastic
07/22/2008 7:40 PM  

Hi and welcome!  I am sorry I can't help you with you problem but, I'm sure when Nora the training moderator or other members with more training experience than I reads your post they will offer some excellent suggestions to help you and your pup.  You'll love this site.  P.S. We love pictures.


We'll have to outwit the fiend with our superior intelligence.

http://lordmarley08.googlepages.com/home
MurphyDog


Ratastic
Ratastic
07/22/2008 8:10 PM  

Welcome!  We love pictures!   Lots of pictures! 

And I think you are doing the right thing in seeking out some guidance on the agression issues you're seeing.  I'm confiident there will be others with some good advice for you on this topic, and if you haven't done so already, take a look in the Training forum.  There are several helpful threads there regarding similar issues.

 


Mitch and Murphy Hancock (the dog)

"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of amazed contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs think humans are nuts." - John Steinbeck
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
07/22/2008 8:20 PM  
You are right to be concerned...
Dogs reach adolescence between the age of six months to a year of age... so your rattie is smack dab right in the middle of it. Hormones are running rampant, and he was fixed (neutered) only a week ago. I highly suspect his hormones haven't settled down yet. Neutering will help quite a bit, though it will take a few months at least before you see the difference while his hormone levels adjust- but it will not solve it completely.
What WILL help is training... and you should start now.
Put him in a crate when visitors come to the house, and let him out once the visitors are settled. He will feel less threatened this way. Request that the visitors NOT reach for him... but instead allow him to initiate interaction with your visitors. Give your visitors treats to give to him once HE initiates the interaction. Make it a fun and positive experience.
NEVER allow anyone to come up to him unless he is on a leash and you have control. If you feel it's necessary, purchase a prong collar (can purchase at Petsmart) and PLEASE PLEASE ask a professional how to use it properly. The prong collar can make a HUGE difference in your dog's behavior if it is used properly. It is NOT a torture device, but is a great and wonderful training tool if used correctly.
Get in contact with a trainer and pay the price for a few one-on-one sessions (not the Petsmart classes.... that's for basic obedience. You are dealing with a different issue). This trainer can tell you/show you the proper ways to use the prong collar and give you other tips to help with the behavior issue. It will be WELL worth the money and may save your dog from being rehomed or sent to a shelter.
If you take the dog to a shelter and say he's aggressive, the odds are very high he will be euthanized and not much effort will be put into finding him a new home.
Please expend a little time and money to help this dog with the behavior issues you are referring to. There's a reason for it... and a trained eye will be more apt to figure out what's triggering the behavior than you can!
Good luck... and welcome to the forum!

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
swatson6


Attention Starved
Attention Starved
07/23/2008 10:54 AM  
Welcome to the site. Sorry your little one is having a hard time. I just wanted to add that sometimes there are medical reasons why a dog can suddenly become aggressive and I would run it by the vet also.

Sarah



gwacie


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
07/23/2008 11:04 AM  
Good tips here. If you really love this boy and are willing to work on it as you say, you might seriously consider getting a professional trainer in for a few sessions. Not a puppy class but a private trainer who comes to your home. It can make a world of difference as the trainer will watch how you interact and help you fix YOUR issues which in turn will fix the problems for the dog. It is often a problem with the humans that we don't even know we are doing.

Good luck and thanks for sticking with him.

gwacie (Bethany)
My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/
Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
07/23/2008 2:25 PM  
Posted By rattie510 on 07/22/2008 7:31 PM

Our 10-month old rat terrier has been showing some troubling sings of aggression in the past month, even since getting neutered over a week ago. We adopted him when he was about four months old and have done our best to socialize him, always taking him out to the park, meeting other dogs, and exposing him to a lot of people. He was a little fiesty at first and used to bite a lot  but we seemed to get him out of the habit by startling him, making loud noises when he would bite, and giving him a chew toy. For months he got along with strangers just fine and never tried to bite. He is still generally fine around other dogs and cats (he lives with a german shepherd/border collie mix and a cat) but has become aggresive towards people, especially in the past month or so.

He has become hostile towards visitors, barking uncontrollably when they come to the porch, especially into the house, and has more recently begun to snap at strangers as well as friends of ours in public even though he never did this before. This snapping is really troubling to us. He is a sweetheart with us but we think he is becoming very defensive and territorial. If he keeps it up we will simply have to find a new home for him because we can't take him around our friends and family, and fear he will bite someone, god forbid it be a child. We do not know what to do. He has taken basic training so far. We thought after having him neutered he might mellow out a bit, but maybe its too soon to expect changes? He seems to sniff people out at first in many cases, and just when you think he is okay with someone he starts barking and snapping.

We love him very much and want to do whatever it takes to fix this problem. We simply want him to accept other people and stop the snapping. Please help!

i feel for your situation... i would hate to have to be thinking of giving up my baby...

food for thought and i may be way off (so anyone correct me)...  maybe he just needs to be "retaught"... mine are both the same age of 10 months... i know when i was training bryson (to this day) if i slacked in being consistent with him, and when others werent consistent it seems as if we take 4 steps back to the 1 step fwd progress. even with simple come and stay commands... i need to go through it everyday and if 1 day passes the next feels like we are at square one sometimes. pesky rebelious teenage years i tell you!!!


"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
SuzieRedhead


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
07/23/2008 2:41 PM  

Just cuz he got neutered, doesn't mean all the testosterone is gone. That will take a little while. Give him time....


Sue Carello, Scotia, NY (near Albany)
Ratbone Rescues Fostermom, etc...
www.ratbonerescues.com
Fostermom to Oh Mickey and Prince Ratbone

Who do YOU GoodSearch/GoodShop for? Go to www.goodsearch.com and type in Ratbone Rescues!
rattie510


Newbie
Newbie
07/23/2008 4:35 PM  
Thank you everyone very much for your responses and advice. Nora, your detailed tips are very helpful and we are going to try them right away! If anyone knows of a good trainer in the San Francisco Bay Area, please let us know.

Also, reading your words of advice, and reassurances that he is not a lost cause is really heartening. We love this little guy and were torn apart by even the thought of giving him up. Thanks for the warm welcomes. We're really excited to join this community! We'll post more pictures soon. We love pictures too, and are having a lot of fun seeing all of these sweet faces.
LadyLes


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
07/23/2008 4:57 PM  
Good luck to you....

My rattie, Vino (the tan one in the pic) is sometimes snappy with kids. I have spent a lot of time with him and things are much better. I never allow children to approach him, and I remind them of "dog manners" which helps. Mainly, I just make sure I let Vino know that the kid is the boss, not him. I just wanted to give you some hope that the situation can and will get better if you dedicate yourself to training him well.

There is nothing better than wine and chocolate!
~Ashley~
DaisysMom


Moderator
<b>Moderator</b>
07/23/2008 5:00 PM  
Ashley....we do not see enough of you and Vino and Mocha (just saying)

Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom

Emmastaff


Ratterific
Ratterific
07/25/2008 7:34 AM  

Good advice from everyone.  One note, you do want to be careful when using a prong collar on a dog with aggression issues.  The collar may accomplish supressing the aggressive behavior, but it may not solve the reason for the aggressive behavior.  For instance, if the dog is aggressive due to fear, the prong collar will not solve the issue of the fear.  Because of this, the dog will find a new way to channel that fear.  Sometimes this can result in even worse behaviors.   Often times this is where the "dog bit out of nowhere" scenario comes from.  The dog seemed to show no aggression, then wham... he bites!   His aggression seemed to be supressed, but it was never really solved.

The key is to get to the root of the aggression using a qualified trainer like Rattytatty suggested.  A behaviorist or trainer can determine the cause of the aggression and then help you develop a plan of action to solve it.  Believe it or not, aggression can have a lot of different causes. I'm not saying a prong collar is horrible or anything, just be careful when using it with aggression.

You can do a trainer search at: www.apdt.com if you need a place to find one.

There is also a good book called "Feisty Fiedo Help for the Leash Aggressive Dog" by Patricia McConnell.  It is an excellent book!  www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm

 

Also, here is a great article for you: www.4pawsu.com/onleashaggression.htm

 

 

rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
07/25/2008 8:13 AM  
I NEVER recommend a prong collar unless I also recommend a trainer to show the correct way to use it. Used correctly, it can be an absolutely wonderful training aid. Used incorrectly....it can do more harm than good. The key is to find out what is triggering the behavior and either do away with the "source".... or use whatever appropriate methods and resources you can find to correct the behavior.

All dogs perceive physical stimuli differently. Some dogs are physically sensitive, some are not. Distractions or all-consuming activities also can alter that sensitivity. Consider the dog in a normal relaxed state versus the same dog confronted with a female in season, or involved in a dog fight. Obviously, the stimulus required to obtain the desired response when he is relaxed is not the same as the stimulus required to achieve the same response faced with a female in season, or a fight.

The prong collar allows the dog a clear choice. All collars work by creating unpleasantness for the dog---the collar tightens, which the dog dislikes, and therefore he is motivated to act in such a fashion that the collar does not tighten. Depending on the dog, unpleasantness (the collar tightening) sufficient to motivate him may be nothing more than the pressure of a flat buckle collar. Just as some people react dramatically when they stub their toe, and others with just a whimper, dogs, too, display a wide range of tolerance to physical stimuli.

MUCH depends on the dog.... and what is triggering the particular dog's behavior.



~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
Emmastaff


Ratterific
Ratterific
07/25/2008 9:26 AM  

I understand where you are coming from.  And I agree when you caution to use a good trainer to show how to use the prong. I am just saying that even used in the correct way, the prong or any type of positive punishment/negative reinforcement technique threatens to supress the behavior but not extinguish it.  You will find that often the underlying fear, stress or other cause will work its way out into another behavior.  That is why counter-conditioning techniques are good for building new associations and effectively extinguishing the old emotions and replacing them with new positive reactions/emotions.  Do you see where I am coming from?  I am just afraid that even with proper technique, the prong could make some aggression cases worse.  Hey, we can agree to disagree too.  That is the beauty of dog training, so many different opinions and methods.  Not trying to start an argument, just add my own view.  That doesn't make it right or wrong.  I respect your knowledge and experience. Dog training is about constant learning.  I am certainly open to other views as well. 

Edited to say, I guess what I am trying to say, is I'd be wary of any trainer who would use a prong first, without trying other behavior modification techniques for aggression.  I'd say a prong should be a last resort, after other options have been exhausted.  This is just my opinion, not doctorine or anything LOL.    Look for the cause of the behavior, try to modify the cause through counter conditioning, negative punishment if needed (removing something the dog wants)Use great caution when using positive punishment when dealing with aggression.  You could find yourself in a worse situation. 

rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
07/25/2008 9:42 AM  
I think we are saying the same thing... but saying it differently....

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
Emmastaff


Ratterific
Ratterific
07/25/2008 9:57 AM  

You are probably right LOL

rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
07/25/2008 10:37 AM  
I'm not one to say my word and advice is "gospel".... believe me! Most of what I've learned throughout the years has been through trial and error, and I'm certainly not one to advocate that "one size fits all" because it doesn't.

I'm learning new ways to train....and it's been very enlightening and fun.... and different from many (not all) of the ways I was trained to train. So never hesitate to express your opinion just because it might differ from mine. I'm NOT too old to learn "new tricks" and I'm open to other opinions and views.

I do believe and will always believe that a good trainer will always first and foremost evaluate each individual dog before deciding on ANY method of training. I have seen prong collars make situations worse. I have seen prong collars make the situation better. I have seen negative punishments work because a behavior is "forced" rather than because a dog wants to offer a more appropriate behavior. I have seen dogs' spirits broken by the incorrect use of prong collars and shock collars. Usually in those cases, the behavior is is only temporarily corrected... especially if a more operant/positive reinforcement is not used along with the negative approach. There is no one tried and true way to do something. Most of the situations I have seen where there is failure is not because of the training aid... but rather as a result of a poor trainer who has not properly evaluated the dog before any training started.

Offering advice on an online forum is difficult because you are handicapped by not being able to see what triggers the behavior to begin with.

So by all means.... anyone and everyone... feel free to express your views and opinions!


~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
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