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Rat-Terrier.com
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treble02

 Pack Leader

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| 05/18/2008 11:23 AM |
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Ok, so Trixi is pretty laid back.
She has met up with Donna and her 4 pups...no problems....
She has met up with Gary and his....many...pups ( including the Yarbies) no problems...
SHe has had visits to Carolines Ratbone House when were were picking out Toa....no problems...Caroline said she was PLAYING and extremely appropriate...didnt get too rough....
SHe has met pups on our walks and sniffed them and wagegd her tail...Ive shown the pics....
Even with TOa....you guys have seen the videos...she RARELY makes any noise and NEVER shows teeth...come to think of it,...I have had her since last July and I have never seen her lip snarled up. Toa on the other hand will snarl his lip without making any noise...lol
I have noticed her growling more at dogs while shes on her leash and they are on their leash. She is still NEVER showing teeth. To ME it seems like shes growling with excitement. her nub is usually wagging away and shes growling and making other whiny noises. It seems like shes saying "LETS PLAY"
Of course this is my overprotective, non professional opinion...lol
so, i guess my question is....is that possible/normal?
Its a tad embarassing cause other pet owners think shes being agressive, but i really truly dont....How do i teach her good manners?....I want to say to her...."well, thats not a good way to make friends now is it?"
LOL...HELP PLEASE!!! |
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~ Mary, Trixi and Toa's Mommy
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treble02

 Pack Leader

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| 05/18/2008 11:39 AM |
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| I forgot to add one thing.....recently in the past 10 days...she has started to hump Toa...NEVER did it before....its not a big deal to me but almost every time she does it she is growling while shes doing it....should i stop her if shes growling? anyone elses dog into the "rough stuff" ?? LOL...sorry had to "go there" |
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~ Mary, Trixi and Toa's Mommy
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Ski

 Ratastic

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| 05/18/2008 2:00 PM |
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Lucky used to act like a maniac when we encountered other dogs on our walks. I just shortened his leash and corrected him on the spot and eventually he learned to pretty much ignore the other dogs. I have read that most dominance issues start when the dog enters maturity at between 15-36 months of age, and most commonly at around 18 months. And tail wagging can mean alot of things, including aggession. |
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treble02

 Pack Leader

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| 05/18/2008 2:04 PM |
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I have read that most dominance issues start when the dog enters maturity at between 15-36 months of age, and most commonly at around 18 months. And tail wagging can mean alot of things, including aggession. interesting!!!! she is exactly 18 moinths...LOL...i was really hoping its not aggression...hmmmmm |
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~ Mary, Trixi and Toa's Mommy
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gwacie

 Rat-A-Tat-Tat

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| 05/18/2008 2:33 PM |
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How old is Toa now? He may be getting old enough to be a 'threat' to her in her little doggie dominant mind. And yes, she's at prime assertion age, the little minx! One thing you can do with the walking and growling at other dogs is use a high value treat. Before she is close enough to start growling but after you know there is another dog, put her in a sit watching you and begin to give her small (tiny) pieces of a REALLY yummy treat as the other dog nears. To start it would be preferable if the other dog only gets near enough for her to notice but not right up in her 'personal zone' if you will (maybe 15 feet away?). If you keep working her like this she will eventually realize that watching you means great treats and the other dogs can get closer and walk past. You can then do it while she is standing but not moving....eventually moving to walking and giving her the treat after the dog passes. |
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gwacie (Bethany) My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/ Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org |
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treble02

 Pack Leader

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| 05/18/2008 2:39 PM |
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thanks gwacie and Ski...great suggestions so far.... Toa is almost 7 months but now outweighs her although she is a tad taller than him still. |
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~ Mary, Trixi and Toa's Mommy
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LadyLes

 Terrier Terror

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| 05/18/2008 3:27 PM |
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| Vino started humping at about that age as well, I corrected him immediately when he did it. Now he doesn't do it at all. He is actually quite submissive. Good Luck! |
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There is nothing better than wine and chocolate! ~Ashley~ |
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Mitzy's Mom

 Alpha Feist

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| 05/18/2008 3:48 PM |
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18 months - the age of "teenage rebellion" in doggie terms. Went through it with Mayfly and Mitzy both. Hang in there, follow suggestions and it will pass!
BTW my Mitzy does an excited growling thing. She'll do it when, for example, I bring Loco back from somewhere. Mayfly will run up to her with hackles up and doing this "chortling" sound....but there's no agression, she's just that excited.
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org |
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treble02

 Pack Leader

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| 05/18/2008 3:56 PM |
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| I guess I am mostly trying to figure out if / when to stop her from growlingm and or humping. If its not agression, but it makes other dogs and owners nervous should i still stop her and if so...how? |
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~ Mary, Trixi and Toa's Mommy
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bluedog

 Rat Royalty

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| 05/18/2008 4:17 PM |
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Hi, the humping is dominance and the growling is likely pre-aggression (could stem from dominance, anxiety or excitement and turn into full blown aggression if it is not stopped) and it is likely that you are anticipating that she is going to do it. Remember she is not a human! she is reacting to things around her. With the humping I would take her firmly and calmly by both sides of the collar/neck - with Moose (lab) I grab a little scruff and firmly set him down in a sit. That's it, not negative, not positive, just alpha LOL. The more leadership you take with her, the less she will feel the need to do it for herself - it isn't about just the one incident but all your interactions with her, (feeding, walking, going through doors, giving affection when she is tense or anxious). Moose used to hump - since I've made a conscious effort to be pack leader, he's stopped. The humping means shes #1, Toa is #2, and you are #3 (in her mind).
My dogs both lunge and snarl/bark at other dogs when we are walking, they also can walk by very civilly. A few things contribute - if the dog coming at us is lunging on the leash, I tend to tense up and then they tense up. If I am tense at all, it directly affects their reaction. Feel free to make a wide berth around an unstable dog who is pulling and weaving back and forth (not under control). Learn to recognize when your dog is fixating, tensing, anxious - the teeniest bit and give her a firm tug/correction then, don't wait until she is growling. Envision yourself walking right by, head held high, shoulders up and relaxed, your dog moving forward. There are so many points I could go into about how to walk the dog - if you are interested I'd be happy to.
If you are meeting another dog on leash (like everyone is talking/sniffing, etc), don't bother with dogs that are overly excited, lunging, etc because your dog will rise to meet the energy. If you are approaching a calm dog and she is growling (correct her - tug), swing her around and let them sniff her behind first. That makes her the submissive one. You have to be calm (arms relaxed, etc) or you can influence her negatively. |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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2ndhandrats

Rattie

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| 05/19/2008 7:18 AM |
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Posted By gwacie on 05/18/2008 2:33 PM
How old is Toa now? He may be getting old enough to be a 'threat' to her in her little doggie dominant mind. And yes, she's at prime assertion age, the little minx!
One thing you can do with the walking and growling at other dogs is use a high value treat. Before she is close enough to start growling but after you know there is another dog, put her in a sit watching you and begin to give her small (tiny) pieces of a REALLY yummy treat as the other dog nears. To start it would be preferable if the other dog only gets near enough for her to notice but not right up in her 'personal zone' if you will (maybe 15 feet away?). If you keep working her like this she will eventually realize that watching you means great treats and the other dogs can get closer and walk past. You can then do it while she is standing but not moving....eventually moving to walking and giving her the treat after the dog passes.
I like this answer the best because it offers an alternative "correct" behavior, a redirection, rather than just a negative correction. I would begin teaching "watch me" at home where there are no distractions. When she has it down pat, practice in other places/situations with varying degrees of distractions, but only ask her to do it when you know she is going to comply so that you don't give her a chance to fail. Gradually work up to asking her to "watch me" when there is another dog approaching.
I seriously doubt that what Trixie is showing is true aggression from your description. That kind of aggression is actually pretty rare. Leash aggression is very common, however, and usually reflects a lack of self confidence and/or a lack of confidence in their person. Teaching "watch me" will help in both cases, as would a general confidence-building plan such as NILIF or obedience training, etc. I'm not even sure that Trixie is showing leash aggression, however. She may just be excited and vocalizing that excitement (the whining along with the growling could indicate this, as well as the fact that she isn't showing teeth). Learn to read more of her body language...you said she wags her tail, but what is the position of her tail. Straight up, half mast, or held down low? Wagging fast or slow? How are her ears held? Straight up, back, or out to the side? Is she looking the other dog straight in the eye, or avoiding direct eye contact? You have to take it all into consideration. Here is a good site about body language: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/diagrams.html Also: http://www.wagntrain.com/BodyLanguage.htm
Keep in mind that is she IS acting appropriately (dog to dog) and you misinterpret it as aggression, based on the growling alone, and you correct or punish her, you'll do more harm than good and undermine her confidence in you. That's another reason why redirection is a better idea.
Also, I doubt the humping is much to be concerned about. Dogs don't merely hump as a show of dominance. They hump when they're happy and excited, they hump when they're aroused (even S/N dogs can get aroused), puppies hump, adolescents hump. With adults, it can even be a sign of submission as lower ranking dogs will often hump a higher ranking one. It's a dog behavior and I think we tend to read too much into it. If you don't like it, then just don't allow it, in the same way you don't allow them to do other undesirable doggy behaviors such as chewing on the furniture, digging up your garden, barking, etc. If Toa doesn't like it, eventually he'll tell her so himself. |
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Susan B
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wmars1776

 Terrier Terror

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| 05/19/2008 8:34 AM |
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| The only time Smokey growls is when he is rough housing with Bandit. He might bark at a dog going by the house but doesn't growl. Not when on a lease walking. Maybe Trixie does it when you are walking as a protection for you? The correction on the leash with the good treat should work. Just make sure you give the treat when she stops the "protective behavior or growling" otherwise she may think she is being rewarded for the behavior. |
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Bill - "Smokey's" Dad Cumberland, Rhode Island
"To everything, there is a season" www.myspace.com/wmars1776 |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 05/19/2008 9:14 AM |
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Good Monday morning, Mary..... I've been out of pocket at an agility trial the past four days, so am just seeing this... and I'm still reeling from the awful tragedy that happened to my friend's dog over the weekend too... so I'm late in responding.
However, I agree with Susan and Gwacie in their advice to you. Trixi is into adolescence and you will observe some behavior changes. There are some occasions when "negative" correction works best... but this should ALWAYS be IMMEDIATELY followed by a positive reward.
Positive reinforcement most always yields positive results...it means you reward behavior you desire, and ignore or shun behavior you dislike. Positive reinforcement for dogs is a treat, a happy voiced "good dog", some attention and a few pats. It can be a hug, a head rub, playtime - anything your dog finds particularly pleasant and "rewarding". Negative reinforcement is a gruff voice "BAD DOG", isolation from the pack (which are OK to use on occasion), but it can also includes hitting, kicking, screaming, beating and others (which are NOT OK). Again, you should never hit a dog (not saying you would.. just saying this in the general context)... the dog will only resent you and the behavior will worsen. A dog may even bite at because he/she feels your way of correcting is "unfair" from a dog point of view. (Dogs don’t hit each other to discipline). You must be a teacher and correct as her mom would. If corrections are done with conviction and consistency Trixi will learn. PRAISE for any behavior you want repeated, even if you forced her to do it against her will! And, be confident. If you’re not sure what you want, she won’t be sure what you want either. Play with her... praise her behavior, her good manners. Through play she will learn a lot about what you want her to be by the way you play whether it is gentle and quiet, or rough and rowdy.
Timing is most important. The reinforcement (positive OR negative) MUST be used while the dog is DOING the behavior (immediately when Trixi growls) – it is useless an instant before or after. You can "shape" your dog’s behavior entirely without punishment. Dogs really don’t understand punishment. The difference being – a "correction" is deliberate, done at the moment of the misdeed and is not meant to hurt, but to teach. "Punishment" is done after the fact, out of anger or to "get even" and make the dog "pay". The purpose is to cause pain and remorse. Punishment is NEVER acceptable for training any dog, in my opinion. Most dogs are big risk takers and if they feel you are being unfair may snarl, snap or growl out of frustration. A few will cower, submit or refuse to do ANYTHING (why they’re said to be "stubborn" . You’ll never get remorse. The natural reaction is to get angrier because the dog "still won’t do what I want" and punish more, and before you know it you have a "mean dog" that doesn’t respect you enough to listen at all. A better way is to reward behavior you want. |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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bluedog

 Rat Royalty

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| 05/19/2008 2:51 PM |
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| I should clarify when I said full-blown aggression (on leash or otherwise, can stem from anxiety or nervousness or even excitement or the dog feeling the need to control the situation because the owner isn't - not necessarily "I am going to eat you aggression") - over time the cycle of owner anticipating / dog reacting can escalate if you don't do something to stop it (whether that is a correction or treat-based, etc). There are some good suggestions here for you to find something that works for you. |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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treble02

 Pack Leader

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| 05/20/2008 9:23 AM |
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Thanks for all the replys and great advice. SO, I am hearing that even if its not necessarily agression, if its an undesireable behavior I should stop her? She was making the same noises last night when I had food. She was close to me just watching intently doing the whiny growly thing, which is what she does to other dogs....I dunno...it seems like shes talking sometimes!! LOL "gimmie that food"! |
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~ Mary, Trixi and Toa's Mommy
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 05/20/2008 10:20 AM |
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Mary... it would probably be a good idea to crate your dogs while the humans are eating. I've had to do that with Bailey on occasion, as because he and I have become so bonded through the training we've done together... he sometimes acts like he "owns" me and the food I have... regardless of whether it's food I'm eating or treats in my pocket. He will snarl at the other dogs... and when he does that, I take him and put him in his crate. You are right... you don't want to allow the opportunity for any aggression to become worse. You need to nip it in the bud now and you can do that by taking some of the steps mentioned here in several of the posts. I personally feel that removing a dog from a situation is sometimes better than correcting a behavior. (depends on the situation of course... but human mealtimes are times when canines need to know where their boundaries are. |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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