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Rat-Terrier.com
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k_dmom33

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/15/2008 9:04 PM |
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I dont know how to get Jack to stop barking at little kids that come to my house. It is so frustrating, because he's not play barking...it's an intense, I dont like you kind of barking (if that makes sense). It will scare kids too. He doesnt go after them like he's going to bite them, but he barks and backs up. He has never been traumatized by kids like being forced to do something he doesnt like or kicked at or anything. I never let my daughters friends take him to anouther room without me there. He's always with me. I know the lady who I bought him from when he was 8 wks and she totaly socialized her pups, tho there wasnt many kids around. We got him at 8 wks and he's been around little kids ever since. He loves my daughter who is 7, but that is the ONLY kid he likes. He will lay with her and every thing. But if another kid (girl or boy) enters our house he expresses his dislike by barking. If they make noises (as kids do) he will bark. If they run, he will bark at them.(my daughter runs in the house all the time and he doesnt do this). If the jump he will bark. You get the point. I had my friends little boy over the other night and he will be 5 next month. I told him to move slow and come to me and let Jack smell your hand. He did and Jack was timid, but smelled him and let him pet his head. Then the boy got up and started walking away and Jack came behind him barking. The boy screamed because it scared him and of course Jack barked more. I even have had kids here over night and Jack has spent 24 plus hours with them and he still will bark at them when they come down the stairs.
I guess what Im getting to after all this is does anyone think a spray bottle will be a good option to try and teach him not to do this. I was hesitant before because I dont want him to associate kids with displeasure, but I guess he already does. If I tell Jack to come to me and stop he will, but he will bark again after a bit, but he ALWAYS comes when hes doing that and I call him to me. So that is a positive, but how do I get him to not continue to bark after I let him know the child is ok to be here?
Sorry this was so long!!! Bless you if you made it through all this! |
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~~Teresa~~ |
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tauney4

 Pack Leader

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| 03/15/2008 9:15 PM |
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| jmop...but use a stern NO and when he stops give him a treat. or try using the squirt bottle. but i would use the stern no first associated with a treat!!! |
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swatson6

 Attention Starved

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| 03/16/2008 3:13 PM |
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| Just wanted to add that Jeter does the exact same thing and he lives with 4 children under 7. He is great with my kids, but when new kids come in he does just as you described with the backing up and barking. He is a pretty shy dog with new people and even still barks at my stepson when he tries to pet him cause he isn't here all the time. He will also calm down and somewhat ignore them but any quick movements or if they pay any attention to him he starts the barking all over again. I try the no and treat method, but he still does it. It is in his personality I think. Just more nervousness to him that Jack. Hopefully someone will have some good ideas for you. |
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Sarah
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/17/2008 10:08 AM |
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Posted By k_dmom33 on 03/15/2008 9:04 PM
I dont know how to get Jack to stop barking at little kids that come to my house. It is so frustrating, because he's not play barking...it's an intense, I dont like you kind of barking (if that makes sense). It will scare kids too. He doesnt go after them like he's going to bite them, but he barks and backs up. He has never been traumatized by kids like being forced to do something he doesnt like or kicked at or anything. I never let my daughters friends take him to anouther room without me there. He's always with me. I know the lady who I bought him from when he was 8 wks and she totaly socialized her pups, tho there wasnt many kids around. We got him at 8 wks and he's been around little kids ever since. He loves my daughter who is 7, but that is the ONLY kid he likes. He will lay with her and every thing. But if another kid (girl or boy) enters our house he expresses his dislike by barking. If they make noises (as kids do) he will bark. If they run, he will bark at them.(my daughter runs in the house all the time and he doesnt do this). If the jump he will bark. You get the point. I had my friends little boy over the other night and he will be 5 next month. I told him to move slow and come to me and let Jack smell your hand. He did and Jack was timid, but smelled him and let him pet his head. Then the boy got up and started walking away and Jack came behind him barking. The boy screamed because it scared him and of course Jack barked more. I even have had kids here over night and Jack has spent 24 plus hours with them and he still will bark at them when they come down the stairs.
I guess what Im getting to after all this is does anyone think a spray bottle will be a good option to try and teach him not to do this. I was hesitant before because I dont want him to associate kids with displeasure, but I guess he already does. If I tell Jack to come to me and stop he will, but he will bark again after a bit, but he ALWAYS comes when hes doing that and I call him to me. So that is a positive, but how do I get him to not continue to bark after I let him know the child is ok to be here?
Sorry this was so long!!! Bless you if you made it through all this!
Please don't apologize for any questions being too long.... most behavior issues aren't "short". Same as responses can't always be short.
First and foremost... I think your primary concern should be for the children. If Jack seriously does not *like* the children who are coming into your household (his territory...) then I would definitely crate him. After the children have been there for awhile... you can let him out and see how he acts.
Please remember that your household is HIS territory from his perspective. Anyone other than members of his own pack (your family members) are intruders into his territory.
After the kids have been in your environment for awhile... let Jack out of his crate ON A LEASH... and have the kids offer him treats... or toys... or something Jack is crazy about.
It's a step-by-step process... but to me doing it this way is a bit more positive than squirting him with a water bottle, which you can always resort to if the crating method doesn't work.
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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tauney4

 Pack Leader

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| 03/17/2008 11:22 AM |
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| sounds like you are getting good advice |
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gwacie

 Rat-A-Tat-Tat

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| 03/17/2008 11:30 AM |
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Great advice Nora - I'd agreee 100% (lol as is often the case). Be sure that the kids know how to behave around Jack too when you start to socialize him to kids. Keep things quiet and gentle - open hands for treats, easy movements, etc. Don't want anyone hurt but it is an important lesson. |
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gwacie (Bethany) http://www.myadams.net/dogs/ |
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bunney_c21

 Ratterific

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| 03/17/2008 11:44 AM |
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Advice that I would give you for this would be that before the children or child enters the house Jack has to be calm and submissive. If he is barking at the other end of the door this is only going to make him bark more when they come in. He is wanting to show that he is the dominate one and does this by barking aggresivly. You have to show him that you are the dominate one and this is by making him be submissive (laying on back) most of the time in order to do this you have to make him be submissive by putting him on his back and say stay. When dogs play you see them take eachother by the neck and pin the other down (this is submissive, that one dog is trying to be dominate over the other) Also when the children come in, have them pay NO attentions to Jack, walk in calmly because they could also be giving off the vibe of excited. I watch a lot of cesear milan, and so far has worked for my dog, you just have to pull through and do it all the time, a lot of work but pays off. I am doing this with my dog Spudz especially when we go to the dog park, yesterday infact we were there and a baby male pit bull came in, Spudz would not stop "doing the hump" which in his mind is showing dominance... So I had to pin him down and let the other dog smell him, he tried to struggle, but this shows him that what he is doing is not ok, that he has to be calm. After about five minutes with being pined down, Spudz did not do the dominate thing and played regular. |
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Christel Bunney |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/17/2008 12:04 PM |
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| In my opinion, dogs perceive those sort of tactics as an outright threat (pinning a dog down to show who's boss). Body language is everything to a dog, and too many times this sort of tactic backfires. It can cause an aggressive animal to escalate the aggression, ending with the handler getting attacked and bitten. It can also make a dog that is not behaving aggressive to BECOME aggressive. IMO...this is not the sort of way you want to train a dog. |
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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k_dmom33

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/17/2008 3:32 PM |
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| thanks guys for the advise. I will crate Jack when kids come by like you suggested Nora. I do put him away sometimes when kids do come over, but when they are there for a long period I hated leaving him locked up. So I will leash and have them treat him (food is his favorite thing above all else. :-) He's not an aggressive dog by nature, he's more timid and nervous...which I suppose may trigger aggression. If he doesnt like to be handled by kids that is fine with me, they canI just dont want him to bark at them all the time. My primary concern is for the kids because I know that as he gets older if I dont correct this now it may turn into biting and I cant have that due to us having kids over all the time. That is why I needed advise on how to correct it correctly so I dont make the problem worse. So Im going to work very hard with him daily. I dont mind my dogs warning me of someone there....I just want them to stop when I say to!! Thanks again Nora!!! |
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~~Teresa~~ |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/18/2008 12:42 PM |
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Teresa -- please check back and give us a progress report, ok? There are several things you can do to address Jack's behavior... but I always go for the "positive" methods first. Despite their demeanor at times... the breed as a whole, I believe, are very sensitive and harsh correction can break their spirit. Personalities within each breed vary of course... and I don't mean to be stereotyping this particular breed. Just saying that I've found it to be true after having been around several of them and working with a few of them. Bailey was my first experience with a rat terrier... they are not common in these parts. But in the past 1-1/2 years, I've had the pleasure of working with a couple of them. They are HIGHLY intelligent and catch on so quickly. But they can be flattened as a pancake if positive training methods are not used. Some here may disagree with me... and that's certainly their perogative. Am just speaking from my experience only... |
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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dtls224

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/18/2008 12:55 PM |
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Teresa, Thank you for starting this thread. After reading it I realized that Rainy does the same thing. Nora, Thank you for the information. I have read what you suggested and am going to start doing this method right away. I was wondering if bringing her out more in public, on a leash, would help as well. And giver her treats when she does not bark. |
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tina224...live...laugh...love...and bark at the moon
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." ~Unknown |
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Mitzy's Mom

 Alpha Feist

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| 03/18/2008 1:08 PM |
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Posted By rattytatty on 03/18/2008 12:42 PM
Teresa -- please check back and give us a progress report, ok? There are several things you can do to address Jack's behavior... but I always go for the "positive" methods first. Despite their demeanor at times... the breed as a whole, I believe, are very sensitive and harsh correction can break their spirit. Personalities within each breed vary of course... and I don't mean to be stereotyping this particular breed. Just saying that I've found it to be true after having been around several of them and working with a few of them. Bailey was my first experience with a rat terrier... they are not common in these parts. But in the past 1-1/2 years, I've had the pleasure of working with a couple of them. They are HIGHLY intelligent and catch on so quickly. But they can be flattened as a pancake if positive training methods are not used.
Some here may disagree with me... and that's certainly their perogative. Am just speaking from my experience only...
I'm not a trainer and only have my 2 1/4 (Mitzy, Mayfly and Skipper may be 1/4 rattie) to go by but I totally agree with what Nora is saying. It works much better to go the positive training method first. I tried the "putting them on their back" submission thing that Cesar Millan does (I used to watch a lot of him) with Mayfly when she growled and wouldn't give up a bully stick once. It caused her to growl more and start to become agressive at that time! And I know, without a shadow of a doubt, if I ever was really harsh with her she would just crack....obviously I never have been but it's easy to see what would happen if someone was.
I got smart (after reading someone's advice on here) and if I want to take a bully stick from her now she will give it to me right away....I simply trade her another treat or toy for it. |
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/18/2008 1:37 PM |
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Good for you, Mary Beth -- if you can get your dogs to do this! LOL As for me... there is NOTHING my dogs will trade a bully stick for! But I don't give them a bully stick if I need to take it away from them. I give it to them so that they have enough time to finish them. But I suppose there are instances when you need to take it away from them before they get finished, and in that scenario... you indeed DO need for your dogs to respect you enough to obey your "DROP" or "RELEASE" command... or get them to trade for something better. (is there anything better? LOL) |
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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Mitzy's Mom

 Alpha Feist

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| 03/18/2008 1:49 PM |
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No, according to Mayfly there's not much of anything better than a bully stick! I do give them the sticks when they will have a long time to chew them. The first time I tried to get the stick from her it was because she had stolen one of the other dog's sticks. And just over the weekend I took one from her because they'd been chewing for a while and I was ready to take them for a walk....and Mayfly would have just taken hers along on the walk.
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/18/2008 1:56 PM |
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Posted By Mitzy's Mom on 03/18/2008 1:49 PM
No, according to Mayfly there's not much of anything better than a bully stick! I do give them the sticks when they will have a long time to chew them. The first time I tried to get the stick from her it was because she had stolen one of the other dog's sticks. And just over the weekend I took one from her because they'd been chewing for a while and I was ready to take them for a walk....and Mayfly would have just taken hers along on the walk.
You really need to learn a little more patience, Mary Beth !!    
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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Psyched

 Newbie

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| 03/18/2008 2:20 PM |
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I did the thing where I would put our oldest dog, Chloe, on her back in a submissive position when she would act aggressively. Now, we just crate her for a few minutes if she acts in an unacceptable manner - kind of a time out. She was very nervous around children - particularly those who were short b/c they would often look the dogs right in the eyes, which the dogs take as a threat. Chloe treats anyone that gives her a treat as a friend, so we introduce her to children by having them give her a treat. (we use cheerios with small children in case they eat the treat!) I don't know how your dog would respond to this, but it worked really well for us. Now Chloe is good with kids - she quicly learned that the often have food on their faces!  |
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Crystal

 Ratastic

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| 03/18/2008 2:51 PM |
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| What about if it is only one child that the your dog dosen't like Guen will almost attack on boy in our neighborhood. He is the only one she is fine with his little sister. But if Guen even smells or hears this boy her hair stands on end and she growls. What do you do about that? Even though I suspect it is more something about the boy that Guen really dosent like because she will like and play with the little girl |
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Mom to Guenhwyvar, When life gets hard, take a long hot bath and enjoy knowing the door locks and your phone is on silent!!

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Mitzy's Mom

 Alpha Feist

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| 03/18/2008 2:55 PM |
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Call me crazy but I bet it's something with that exact child. Either he's done something to her, or he has some sort of weird smell or he's got some sort of emtional unbalance going on. Our Mitzy loves people, all people, but when she is wary of a person - I know to stay away from them myself! |
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org |
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Crystal

 Ratastic

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| 03/18/2008 3:02 PM |
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| He did ask me once if she was a demon dog, but she has never been off the leash around them or alone with them only when I take her for walks is she ever around them. He givves me bad vides but I thought it was just do to guens reactions. I don't call you crazy but wondering if others thought like I did, that something just isn't right with this one child. |
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Mom to Guenhwyvar, When life gets hard, take a long hot bath and enjoy knowing the door locks and your phone is on silent!!

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Psyched

 Newbie

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| 03/18/2008 3:17 PM |
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I agree with Mary Beth about the individual child. I think sometimes our dogs can sense things we can't. |
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k_dmom33

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/19/2008 10:36 PM |
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| I'll be having kids over this weekend so Im going to try those training techniques mentioned by Nora. I'll keep ya posted about this. |
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~~Teresa~~ |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/19/2008 11:15 PM |
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| I hope it works out, Teresa... don't expect to see huge amounts of progress in the beginning. Remember... patience, consistency, calmness and assertiveness ! Let us hear from you! |
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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k_dmom33

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/26/2008 11:53 PM |
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| My daughter had her 7 yr old friend over this weekend and of course Jack started barking at her as soon as she was in the door. I placed him in his "room" until he stopped then I let him out. I had him leashed and had the little girl give him a yummy treat and I praised him alot. He did pretty well with this for a time, then he barked at her again when they headed up stairs so I gave his leash a tug to get his attention and said no. He stopped and came to me with kisses (he is a mommas boy ya know!!). When she came back down stairs and Jack started in again I stood between him and the girl and said NO firmly. He stopped then and I had her treat him again and he was pretty good for most of the day. He barked at my Nephew the next day, but I did the same thing with him. Im sure progress will take time, but I like seeing some results right away like I did. Thanks for the advise. I'll let you know how it goes, Im going to take him to the t-ball field to watch my daughter practice. |
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~~Teresa~~ |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/27/2008 7:42 AM |
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Teresa -- I'm thrilled to read this update from you. THANK you for checking back in. So often advice is offered and people never come back to share an update with us. So we have no clue if the advice fell on deaf ears... or if the advice was taken and simply did work... or it the advice was taken and DID work! What you are working on will take time... consistency... patience.... but I promise you it will work if you apply those three things! You are smart to take him everywhere you can possibly take him. Expose him to different people... different environments... different "surfaces" (what he does well on gravel he may not do well on concrete or grass)...and remember to always have treats in your pocket because trust me... you never know when they might be needed. (hotdog bits, cheese, chicken... not commercial treats... make it worth his while to obey you!) You may need to consider having him already crated when people come to your home. That way their entrance into "his territory" will not be as intimidating to him. After they are already inside and settled.... THEN let him out on lead and be calm and assertive with him. What you described in your post represents small steps. These small steps are very significant as you build on them towards the goal of Jack not barking when people enter your home. Regardless of whether he *likes* these people or not... it's YOUR home and he must adapt to your lifestyle. It will happen... I promise... if you do your part, and it sounds like you've got a super start! Good luck to you !! |
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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k_dmom33

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/27/2008 10:34 PM |
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| Thank you Nora. I appreciate your advise so much and I will follow it. I am going to crate him first before people come in like you said, and carry treats with me everywhere I go. I will post from time to time to give an update on our progress. |
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~~Teresa~~ |
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talatzkomom

 Ratastic

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| 03/27/2008 10:48 PM |
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MY ADVICE IS GET HIM OUT! take him every where you go till it gets too hot! petsmart!! petco! anywhere they let pets go! and do the crate thing to or put him in a room, till folks come in and then let him out tell folks to ignor him!!! he'll figure out it ok! Caesar is this way too but after they get in he settles down!!! really just ignor him, it a powere strugle! caesar doen't like little kids too! never has ,won't hurt them! just doesn't like 'um! 9-10! ekk! I make all the little kids come over and pet the pups and ingnor him he can't stand it!!! he'll start coming to them! also have them get down to his level this help too! especially kids they must sit and not move and give treats!!! don't try to touch pup only give treats this works! |
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Linda talatzko
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/28/2008 8:09 AM |
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It's a great idea to take your dog everywhere with you that you can and expose him to different people, places and smells and sounds... for sure! However... as good as this is for your dog, it's a very different scenario when you allow people into your home because that's "His" territory. So a dog's behavior with people at Petsmart for example, can be very different if that same person from Petsmart should walk into your front door. It's two totally different environments and most dogs will react one way in one environment and another way in another environment. It's good to expose them to both and train the dog to be consistent regardless of where he is or who is around. But for most dogs... this takes time and some training to accomplish that ultimate goal. I've seen dogs at Petsmart walk around with their ears back flat on their heads and their tails between their legs.... totally uncomfortable and timid in that environment.... but at home they are totally at home some of them to the point of thinking they own the house they live in! It's very important... like Linda said... to socialize our dogs in various environments among various people... and teach the dog that the house they live in is not "THEIR" house, but "OUR" house... the visitors are OUR visitors... and the treats are OUR treats. If a dog never learns this... it could spell disaster. |
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 ~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ |
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