Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/06/2008 10:13 PM |
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My girlfriend has a 2 yr old rat terrier who is quite a handfull. We just moved in together and the dog thinks he is the boss. He is housebroken that is not a problem. This is a partial list of some of his behaviors.
Growling and barking at all visitors
Not letting go of anything he gets in his mouth
Always nudging and licking for attention
Doesn't listen to commands
My girlfriend has not done any training with him and I think this is why he is this way. She lets him get away with anything. I know she needs as much training as the dog....lol
I have heard/read about "clicker" training and want some information on what I can do to train my "adopted" pet as well on things to get my girlfriend in on the act. Any help would be greatly appreciated....I am not sure where else to go...I don't have money for school training for him.
Also of note is the fact that he has the "luxating patellas" or whatever that is, to where he can't sit like a normal dog....vet said $1600 would fix it....that is crazy....So I can't teach him to sit which is one of the first things you teach a dog right?
Is it just me or is he freakishly long limbed for a rat terrier?
Suffering in Springfield
Levi

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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/06/2008 10:24 PM |
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No... teaching a dog to sit is NOT one of the first things you teach a dog. The first and most important command you teach a dog is the "COME" command. What good is it if your dog can sit... but won't come to you to do it?
One of the most valuable things you can teach your dog is to come when called. Ironically, the more control you have over your dog, the less you need to use it and the more freedom your dog will have. So time spent on this exercise is well worth it. If you can call your dog away from a dangerous situation on a walk, call him in from the garden when you're late for work, or call him away from deer in the woods, then the dog will get a chance to walk in the woods, in the park and in the fields, without having to be on lead most of the time. This is an exercise that is as important for his happiness as it is for yours.
Keep in mind that the hardest part of recall is to get your dog to turn his attention off what he is doing and unto you. That's why you need to encourage him by saying "Good dog!" with enthusiasm the instant he turns his head and starts moving towards you. He will need reinforcing well before he gets to you. A word to the wise: most people don't praise their dog soon enough, so consciously force yourself to praise your dog as soon as your dog turns towards you.
Repeat this game several times a day in short sessions, conditioning your dog to link the cue "come" with running towards you and feeling good about it. Initially, practice 10-20 times per day in all sorts of areas around the house and the garden. Carry treats in your pocket and give them to him as a reward for coming to you... and praise him BIG time! This may sound like a lot of times, but by doing it a little here and there it will be easy. You can also take the opportunity of calling him to you before putting his food down. Imagine what a jackpot he's getting by just coming to you!
At first avoid calling your dog when he is intensely focused in something else, your goal is to get your dog to come to you every time he's called, so don't set your dog up for failure and to learn to ignore you when he feels like it. To be able to call your dog away from a play session in the park, you need to start with him coming to you every single time and be really glad he did. Always... the primary primary goal is to control the outcome of the dog's behaviour.
One last thing to bear in mind, is to avoid calling your dog for something he is not going to enjoy, like getting his nails trimmed, or putting him back on the lead when he is still full of energy. In these instances, simply go to him, clip the lead on, keep a friendly and upbeat attitude and be sure you avoid linking your come cue with something he doesn't like.
I would concentrate on this command... and don't worry about anything else right now. You'll find as your dog becomes more disciplined... and focused... other commands will be taught more easily. Keep plenty of yummy treats (hot dogs, stringed cheese.. chicken) handy too!
I'm sorry about the patellas... bummer. I would HIGHLY advise the surgery. Your dog is young and will rebound/recuperate from the surgery nicely at his age. Why not check to see if the vet will take payments?
Good luck! |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/06/2008 10:25 PM |
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| Oh... and no he's not too long-legged. He's a Type A rattie and they have longer legs than the short-legged Type B ratties. He's beautiful ! |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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WcolsOH

 Rattie

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| 03/06/2008 10:44 PM |
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Suggestion for high pet bills: Ask your vet if they accept Care Credit. Easy to apply for. Basically a credit card for vet care, human dental care/eye care, etc. I found it extremely helpful when I had high vet bills. Most importantly, pay it off within the year-long promotion period which is interest-free and finance-charge-free! |
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swatson6

 Attention Starved

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| 03/07/2008 7:48 AM |
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| You've gotten great advice. I just wanted to say welcome and you will see with a little effort in training he can be an amazing dog. He is beautiful! |
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Sarah Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/07/2008 7:55 AM |
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Posted By WcolsOH on 03/06/2008 10:44 PM
Suggestion for high pet bills: Ask your vet if they accept Care Credit. Easy to apply for. Basically a credit card for vet care, human dental care/eye care, etc. I found it extremely helpful when I had high vet bills. Most importantly, pay it off within the year-long promotion period which is interest-free and finance-charge-free!
~~Good suggestion~~ 
Please come back and let us know how things are going ok? We're here to help you if we can! |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/07/2008 8:10 AM |
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Thanx for the info guys! I plan on starting some training tonite after work with frank. Should I just do it by myself first so he assumes I'm the pack leader then once I have him trained incorporate her into the mix? Also...The surgery to fix the luxating patellas.....what are the results of the surgery? What gets fixed?? will he walk better? I think I am going to try the clicker method of training...I will let you guys know how I'm doing this weekend...... |
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swatson6

 Attention Starved

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| 03/07/2008 8:12 AM |
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Sounds like you are on the right track. We have a member here who just had the surgery done on their dog, they may be able to explain more. He is only 2, how bad are his patellas? You may be able to wait a bit and see how he does if they are not that bad.
Also, with bad patellas you want to make sure to keep him lean with no added weight.  |
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Sarah Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan
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mommabird

 Ratastic

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| 03/07/2008 8:23 AM |
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Hi and welcome to the site! You came to the right place for advice for your rattie. Just hang in there with him with consitant work and you will see what a wonderful and loyal breed they are. He will also do better for you with regular excercise and mental stimulation. They are very active little dogs ;-) As for the luxating patella-that basically means that his knee caps slip out of place. It really depends on how serious the problem is and how much it effects his quality of life as to him actually needing the surgery. The ligaments (cruciate) around the kneecap are "rebuilt" to hold them in place. I have an older female that has the same problem on a minor scale and has never needed the surgery, while there are others that need it badley. As with any knee surgery, there is a rehab and recovery period. It's usually very succesful. Keep us posted and let us know how the training is coming! |
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mommabird (Rachel)
Y'all have a Great Day! |
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/07/2008 8:46 AM |
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Thanx again! Here is some more info that I got from my girlfriend ( who was the head receptionist at a vet clinic, someone came in with him as a puppy wanting to give him up and she took him)
At the last visit which has been about 6 months ago...the doctor said there were no tears in any ligaments...the surgery will be $1600 for both legs, or no surgery and eventually his ligaments will tear....
We give him glucosamine chondroitin for dogs every day as a treat which has seemed to help his legs...he no longer gets up and carries his back legs for a little while after laying down for extended periods of time......
After the surgery would he be able to sit???
right now sit to him is going into the position on the floor like you see in the picture above.... |
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wmars1776

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/07/2008 9:02 AM |
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Welcome to the site! Everyone is giving you good advice. I laughed though when I read your post. Lets see if I got this right: You two just moved in together...and he thinks he is the boss? In the pic he looks like he is telling you "Hey Bud, I am Alpha male in this house!" LOL  |
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Bill - "Smokey's" Dad Cumberland, Rhode Island
"To everything, there is a season" www.myspace.com/wmars1776 |
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swatson6

 Attention Starved

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| 03/07/2008 9:04 AM |
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| I would say as far as the patellas go, you and your vet need to discuss what is best. The surgery, when neccessary, works well. He is very young, and if his patellas are that bad already that the vet is talking surgery (which most only do as a last resort) then it may be your only option. Did they give him a stage that they are at? (1-4) |
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Sarah Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/07/2008 9:05 AM |
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OH YES!! he definitely thinks he is the pack leader of the house....I have heard of ways of playing with dogs on the floor and just asertively laying them down with your paws over them like another dog til they calm down and thats the beginning of him releasing his control as leader......
Can anyone confirm this?? |
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/07/2008 9:08 AM |
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I will try and find out more about what stage he is in.... |
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swatson6

 Attention Starved

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| 03/07/2008 9:10 AM |
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| I have always from day one flipped my boys over on their backs and held them there until they stopped struggling (submissive postion) . Now when I do it they don't struggle they just accept it. |
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Sarah Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan
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rattagan's mom

 Rat-A-Tat-Tat

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| 03/07/2008 9:15 AM |
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On the luxating patellas, I can say that it is fixable. Ratty has had problems with his knee for 3 years and I took him to my vet in NC and that idiot said he had arthritis and to give him 81 mg aspirin once a day. It continued to get worse so I took him to my vet here and had x-rays done to discover that the groove he should have had at birth did not exist. So we opted to fix it. They went in and made a groove and positioned his knee cap correctly. They also found a torn ligament and fixed that while in there. The cost was $1300.00 here in Florida for one knee and well worth it. Ratty had a great surgeon and has a fantastic vet. I do admit that the care he needed when he came home was not easy. I slept on the floor with him for 2 weeks so he wouldn't feel so alone since he couldn't get in the bed with us as usual. Phil took four of those nights to give me and my back a break. We had to carry him up and down the steps. It broke my heart to see him like that. Now it is 6 weeks later and my boy is walking better than he has in 3 years. Of course there is still more healing time to go but he can go in and out on his own now. At the end of the day his leg still tends to give a little when climbing the steps but it is improving each day. When he can't make it he stands at the steps and cries until I come get him and bring him in or out which ever he needs.
Fortunately for us, if we get the new house there are no steps for him to have to deal with. My vet said that luxating patellas can happen to any small breed dog. My sister's vet in VA warned her of that when she took her new dog(not a rattie, some kind of poodle mix) in for neutering and said it is possible with all small breeds though it does not always happen.
Ratty can now sit which he hasn't been able to do for easily for more than 3 years. Before it was fixed when he would sleep he couldn't hardly walk at all when he got up. Now it may take a minute to put that leg down but he does and walks normally. I did not know about such things with small dogs and as he began to exhibit pain I was afraid that I would have to put him down because his quality of life was going way down and I didn't want him to have to live on pain pills. And then I found out it could be fixed. I chose to have the surgery because I could not bear to see him in such pain. To me it was worth the money to see my boy acting like he did when he was younger. He is 11 now but thanks to his surgery I may have quite a few more years with him having fun instead of him living on pain meds, which affect their liver in a very short amount of time. I wish you luck with the pup. |
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Janie, Ratty,Cameo,Cutter and Nala Belle's Mom
Show your furbaby how much you love them brush their teeth today! It saves them pain "tomorrow." Janie L. |
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DaisysMom

 Moderator

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| 03/07/2008 9:16 AM |
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There are a lot of ways for humans to convey to dogs that they are the Alpha or pack leader. First, and easiest, I think, is control of food. He should be on a schedule for feeding and should see you getting it ready, then calling him to you and making him sit before placing it in front of him. Almost equal to that, I think, is "the walk". You should take him for walks and they need to be structured so that he is either at your side or slightly behind you and you are leading him where you want to go. This is not the time for sniffing every tree or allowing the dog to meander about. This kind of walk has a purpose and that is to let the dog see you as his leader. This kind of walk is believed to not only exercise them physically, but mentally as well. If you can do this for 1/2 hour and then come home and do the feeding, he'll see it as a "hunt" with a purpose at the end. I'm sure others here will have some great advice and hits for you as well Obedience training will be easier if you establish Alphaness and I agree that the Come command is the first and most important command a dog should learn. |
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Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/07/2008 11:37 AM |
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Much of the establishment and reinforcement of "alphaness" is done through the training process. Another way to establish yourself as the alpha is never allowing the dog to go out a door before you. Make the dog sit & stay... (on lead in the beginning of course... ) go out the door while the dog sits/stays... and come back in and reward him. Thanks, Janie... for posting about Rattagan's patella surgery. I was hoping you'd see this and respond. It's always so helpful to get opinions, etc. from someone who has "been there and done that" !! |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/07/2008 12:44 PM |
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Well I have some good news...
After working with frank at lunch for about an hour today I could already tell a huge difference in him...I started with stay/come and did it about 30 times rewarding when done correctly and saying no firmly and restarting each time....I used a mix of treats and praise and could see he really liked it...after each 10 or so tries I would wrestle with him a lil bit on the floor and each time by the end I was on top holding him down, not forcefully, but showing my dominance....he responded greatly by letting me do this which I never thought he would, and by calming down and starting to relax when I held him down. I can't wait to get off work and work on him some more...
Seeing a light at the end of the tunnel
Levi |
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DaisysMom

 Moderator

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| 03/07/2008 12:54 PM |
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This breed is none for being exceptionally smart and eager to please their "people". Just make sure you only work in very short bursts. Keep us posted and stick around. We'd love additional pics of Frank as well!!!! |
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Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/07/2008 1:23 PM |
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I will try and get some more pics of frank up this weekend tracey....thanks for all your guys help I will keep you all updated on franks progress..... |
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swatson6

 Attention Starved

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| 03/07/2008 1:26 PM |
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| That is wonderful. You will see what quick learners these little dogs are. Keep us posted!!! |
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Sarah Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/07/2008 1:42 PM |
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An hour for starts is a long time. May I suggest working in shorter intervals? Preferrably 15 minutes or so at a time? Also, I would not get on top of him to show your dominance... there are other more effective ways to establish yourself as alpha... as the leader... it will happen as the dog learns the commands and respects you as the boss. After all.... YOU are the guy with the treats and the praise, right? As he earns these treats and praise from you... he will (by default so to speak) learn to respect you as alpha. Don't try to build Rome in one day! LOL But... good for you for making the commitment towards training this little guy! |
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~Nora~ Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ |
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Sarah K

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/07/2008 1:51 PM |
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| Oh... that is great news. Glad he is responding well so far. Sorry I am just now seeing this post. Chrissy, Pepper and I wish to welcome you to the site. Can't wait to see more pictures next week. We are all about the pictures. LOL |
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Sarah ~ Mommy to Chrissy and Pepper (JackRat)
Chrissy and Pepper's Blog: http://360.yahoo.com/magicalmemories3980 |
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Crystal

 Ratastic

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| 03/07/2008 1:56 PM |
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The best advice I ever got for training my girl was to work with her while watching TV. For example take the commercal breaks to work with them, do a few exercies in the short time that you have then when your show comes on take a "break" that way they don't get bored or frustrated and neather do you. Then you start again duing the next break. It worked good with me but since every one and every dog is different I hope this suggestion might help. But about waiting on teaching the roomate it is best for her to know what she has done wrong in not training her pup and work with her to correct the problem. She should understand that it is part of being a responsible pet owner to train and work with them, because such basic commands such as COME, SIT, STAY, DROP IT, LEAVE IT, could save her dogs life. After explaning this she hopefully with be ready and will to work with you and get Frank ready to listen and you can live all three together in peace.
I've heard the good and bad of clicker training but I used it to teach just the basics we don't need it anymore but for some people and first time "trainers" with thier dogs it works.  |
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Mom to Guenhwyvar, When life gets hard, take a long hot bath and enjoy knowing the door locks and your phone is on silent!!

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canineboss

 Rattie

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| 03/13/2008 6:24 PM |
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The problem of dropping something once he gets it in his mouth is one that I have had to deal with alot, training high drive working dogs, First don't make it a game by trying to pull it from his mouth. Using a second toy or treat is a method that works often with high drive dogs, show him the second toy and givie him a comand to "drop it" if necessary tease him some with the second toy until he drops the item, then throw the toy making sure he sees where it goes then praise him profusely. A second method less desirable is holding him by his collar with his front legs off the ground again giving him the drop it command... once he drops it you immediatly put him back on the ground and give him a big reward.(like I said Less Desirable but effective)... Remember that the more severe the correction is the reward should be twice the intensity...Don't be afraid to make a fool out of yourself praising him...I promise he won't mind and will love you more for it... By the way sounds like your girl friend has a really nice dog, with a high play drive...believe it or not that's going to make training him that much easier. Use that play drive to your advantage. I noticed you said that you are using praise and giving the reward intermitantly, at this point I would use both with every comand. Once he is understands what you are asking and does it consistantly then with holding the reward once in a while and only praising him will be fine. Also adding a Jackpot reward at the end of your session or when he does something perfect is a Technique I like...Jackpot meaning toy reward praise reward and maybe a treat all given at the same time... You also mentioned Clicker Training there are many books and websites with information on this, this training works, but so does using a simple word or phrase like "good boy" or "Yes"...the clicker sound signals the animal has done something correctly and a reward or treat will follow... the same thing can be accomplished with a praise word or phrase...Just like your correction word or sound.."No"..Should signal that a he has dones something undesirable and correction will follow...Use the tone of your voice and body language to give these words meaning...and again they must be given at the instant the behaviour occurs and the reward/correction should be given as quickly as possible.. I know that all the clicker enthusiates will say there's more to it than this but this gives you the idea..And I'm not trying to make light of clicker trainiing, just simplfy the idea some...Please guys don't take this as an invitation to argue over the merets of clicker training because I agree it works... The most important thing to remember with training is timing. you can accomplish anything once you get the timing down... The reward or the correction must come immediatly after the behavior or your pup won't associate it with the behaviour.. Have fun let us know how's he's doing... |
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Live everyday like it's your last because tomorrow is promised to no one |
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BETTYLOO35

 Ratterific

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| 03/13/2008 6:41 PM |
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I was reading the post about not letting go of the toys. With andy we stopped trying to pull it from him and refused to play by ignoring his actions after a few times Andy realized that if he wanted us to throw it again he had to let go. Now he will fetch for hours no matter what you find to throw for him. Patience is a must as he seems to love playing for than life itself. |
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Levi

 Rattie

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| 03/14/2008 11:47 AM |
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Hey guys!
Havent had time to get any new pics of frank....sorry : - (
But in other news he is coming along great...
Been working with him on a leash for walks in the park....trying to get him to understand how to walk without pulling on the leash and choking himself....think I am going to buy him a harness for our walks...also picked up a copy of cesar milans first book...going to start reading it this weekend...wish me luck!
Levi |
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BobDog

 Obsessed

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| 03/14/2008 1:36 PM |
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Glad the training is coming along. Ratties tend to be very smart dogs.
Now, about the surgery. Please, please get it done as soon as possible. It will only get worse and there is usually pain involved with lux. patellas as they get older. Dogs are good at hiding pain especially when it's a constant low-grade pain as opposed to a sharp intense pain. I'm sure you don't want him in pain!
And $1600 isn't too bad. If you compare to human procedures and costs. It's really very reasonable. (Especially if it includes lab work and follow ups!)
The longer you wait, the worse it gets. Usually the vet will let you make payments or do Care Credit. Like stated previously there is a long intro period with no interest. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars on our Cattle Dog Kahlua's surgeries. The vet let us pay $25.00 a month. Just talk to them. Communication is the best. A lot of times you just have to talk to them.
Bob had the surgery on one leg when he was six months old. He did great!!
Best of Luck
  
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bunney_c21

 Ratterific

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| 03/14/2008 1:56 PM |
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This is the reason. "My girlfriend has not done any training with him and I think this is why he is this way. She lets him get away with anything. I know she needs as much training as the dog....lol" With dogs they are not like humans and need to know that someone is the "pack leader" or they will be. I have a good dog I have to say. But when we go to the dog park is where we really have to show who is the pack leader because he gets really excited to see friends. I am a big fan of Cesear Millan, and he has a web site of Yahoo. This site has a lot of good facts, I even recommend watching his TV show. |
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Christel Bunney |
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