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Subject: Might be a silly question but......
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momto3


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
03/03/2008 12:37 PM  

how long will it take approximately for Phoenix & Pinky to really like each other & play nice? There's not really any problems, she has now stood her ground & Phoenix doesn't bug as bad as he used to. When he tries to play with her, she won't? I've never had two dogs, so I am new to this, so it would be great if you could share some of your experiences with me if you don't mind

alice4512


Firehouse Big Dog
Firehouse Big Dog
03/03/2008 12:40 PM  

Honestly I bet it took Fred and Alice a good month to really get used to each other. I think I posted a while back how do you know if your dogs actually "like" each other because I was feeling the same thing. I really think they go in cycles to though. One day they love each other and the next day they annoy each other. I mean they are together 24/7 so there may be times one wants to play and the other doesn't. I have learned to just butt out and let them figure it out on their own. I will only get involved if I hear any growling that sounds to serious, which I have not yet. I think they have to get used to each other their routine. Give it time but let them do the figuring........


The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too

~Mom to my good boy Fred and my crazy girl Alice~
Proud applications coordinator for Ratbone Rescue
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/03/2008 12:58 PM  

I would highly advise letting them work it out, under supervision of course. They WILL work it out. The goal is not necessarily for them to "LIKE" each other (although that would be nice...), but the goal is for them to work through being able to live together.

Expect some sibling rivalry. Phoenix probably doesn't like an intruder moving in on his territory and vying for your attention, and it's not surprising that he's not warming up to her immediately. Bring them together for short periods when you can supervise. In the meantime, feed them separately and give them both plenty of attention. Let Phoenix have something with Pinky's scent on it to help him get used to Pinky....at the very least, he’ll learn to tolerate her, and as Pinky becomes more comfortable with the surroundings and her new environment, their relationship will stabilize. Seniority usually rules!


~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
alice4512


Firehouse Big Dog
Firehouse Big Dog
03/03/2008 1:01 PM  
Posted By rattytatty on 03/03/2008 12:58 PM

I would highly advise letting them work it out, under supervision of course. They WILL work it out. The goal is not necessarily for them to "LIKE" each other (although that would be nice...), but the goal is for them to work through being able to live together.

Expect some sibling rivalry. Phoenix probably doesn't like an intruder moving in on his territory and vying for your attention, and it's not surprising that he's not warming up to her immediately. Bring them together for short periods when you can supervise. In the meantime, feed them separately and give them both plenty of attention. Let Phoenix have something with Pinky's scent on it to help him get used to Pinky....at the very least, he’ll learn to tolerate her, and as Pinky becomes more comfortable with the surroundings and her new environment, their relationship will stabilize. Seniority usually rules!

That is so true Nora, in our case Fred is the Alpha and he has the seniority. We do feed seperate and give attention to both. I have found when we watch them is when they act the worst. When we aren't looking at them they play so nice.........


The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too

~Mom to my good boy Fred and my crazy girl Alice~
Proud applications coordinator for Ratbone Rescue
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/03/2008 1:09 PM  
Some people... some trainers I know even...declare that dogs have the emotion "jealousy".

I disagaree. Jealousy is a very complicated emotion, with a lot of thought going into it. Dogs don't have the ability for that. What you see in dogs and call jealousy is one of two things: competition (which is the equivalent of sibling rivalry) or straightening out the pecking order.

If you're not sure who is dominant, notice which one goes through a door first. Who's in front when they walk across they yard or the room? Don't base your opinion on food. Dogs have food available to them on a daily basis...Dogs can show dominance over food, but don't pin your opinion on that one thing. Pay attention when you see one dog walk across the room and hesitate in front of the other dog. The subordinate dog will turn his head a little and look away. Once he does that, the dominant dog will continue to walk.

In the canine world... it's all about the pecking order... although we humans like to THINK dogs have human emotions. They simply don't.


~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
Mitzy's Mom


PAWesome
PAWesome
03/03/2008 1:19 PM  

This is such an interesting topic to me.  As you know I've got 4 dogs but I didn't get them all at once....Loco was here first, then Mitzy arrived in 2004, then Mayfly in 2005, then Skipper almost 1 year ago.  Now Mitzy and Mayfly love each other, Skipper and Mayfly love each other.  But Mitzy and Skipper are more complicated....they will play together, sometimes lay next to each other but Skipper is very careful to give Mitzy her space as she is a very dominant female.  They had some real squabbles at first and I separated them several times...no blood or hair missing but it looked and sounded awful!  Skipper had already fought other males and had the weight advantage on Mitzy so I would stop those squabbles.  Now they rarely even have arguments.

Mayfly, although she loves Skipper and he grooms her, etc. yesterday he tried to take her bully stick - and the evil gremlin came out!  She sounds somewhat like a hobgobblin when she growls sometimes and she looks ferocious.....he argued back.  We just watched them and sure enough he backed down without them ever even touching each other.

Loco - she's neurotic and nervous and tends to trample the little ones so they put up with her but she's very submissive and lowest in the hierarchy.


Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org
Pics of my current fosters:
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
bunney_c21


Ratterific
Ratterific
03/03/2008 1:24 PM  
hey rattytatty you sound like cesear milan! Great summary, I am in psychology now, and dog psychology I get from watching cesear... it is very true whoever goes through the door first, this is why we as human need to first go through the door especially on walks because this is where who controls who on the walks.

Christel Bunney
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/03/2008 1:33 PM  
Whippets ARE usually nervous, shy and timid... so that doesn't surprise me, even though she's the resident dog. Dogs will work out their pecking order and will develop different relationships with each dog in the pack. A particular dog may favor one dog in a pack over several others.. same as a dog may favor one human over another. (Lil'Bit definitely favors hubby over me... it's very obvious).

Dogs are social creatures and believers in social order. A dog's social system is a well-defined pecking order. The leader of the pack is the alpha, supreme boss, Top Dog. He (or she) gets the best of everything - the best food, the best place to sleep, the best toy, etc. The leader also gets to be first in everything - he gets to eat first, to leave first and to get attention first. All the other dogs in the pack respect the alpha dog's wishes. It's just how it is in the canine world. We humans are the ones who think each dog should be equal... and we treat them as equally as we can... same as we do our children. But the truth is that regardless of how "equal" we treat our furry friends... they have their own pecking order they will live by. Of course.. always... the human should be the leader of the entire pack.

The main thing to remember is that all dogs in a pack are working toward finding their "position", and will usually find it without human intervention. Everytime a new dog is added, the process starts over again....

Our jobs as humans is to supervise and make sure that squabbles within the pack don't result in true harm... because dogs have been known to fight to the end, unfortunately... as they strive to maintain their positions.

Sorry, Tracy.... guess this thread took a life of its own! haha I hope there's something here that will set your mind at ease about your new addition to the family. Pinky is relatively new... they simply haven't worked it out yet.

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/03/2008 1:38 PM  
hahaha... Christel....
I used to watch Cesar but not so much anymore. I don't agree with many of his methods, although for sure he has been successful...
A few years ago, I agreed with him more than I do now... as I trained several dogs in the obedience environment. Now that I'm into agility... I'm more into operant training methods.

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
momto3


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
03/03/2008 1:55 PM  
Great advice and input here I see some things I am doing wrong, the walking throught he door thing, so will fix that. Phoenix always lets me go first, but I notice Pinky is the first one to go, so I will work with her on that. I will also start feeding them separately too......

Keep it coming
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/03/2008 2:10 PM  
Phoenix and Pinky look so cute laying on their bed. See? That in itself is progress! Dogs just don't do things in the order we humans would have them do things in. What WE think may be logical.... may in fact be totally ILlogical in a dog's way of thinking. So although we are in a hurry for them to work it out and live happily ever after... they simply don't see it that way yet! LOL

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
gwacie


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
03/03/2008 2:24 PM  
Good thread and good advice rattytatty. I've always found that knowing who is alpha (under the humans of course) and supporting that helps us integrate new dogs and fosters in and out. You are right that social order is really key. I don't know that dogs do or don't feel emotions (since I'm not actually a dog lol), but they certainly have a different frame of reference.

gwacie (Bethany)
My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/
Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org
rattagan's mom


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
03/03/2008 2:34 PM  
Ratty and Cameo are still working things out. So hang in there Tracy. Sometimes Ratty is fine with her and will lay with her and lick her, and the other night they played tug of war for a couple of minutes and then Ratty growled and she let go and laid down, totally submissive to him and he walked away. Sometimes he growls and nips the air close to Cameo but doesn't bite her, we would at first try to stop him from doing that and then I told Phil that we should just leave them alone and let them work it out. So far it is going well and Cameo has only been here since Jan. 11th. It will take a little while but they will sort out their pecking order and next thing ya know they'll be friends. Cameo is starting to follow Ratty everywhere now and suddenly he doesn't seem to mind it so much as he did when she first came home. Their beds are placed close together and right now they are sleeping with only a few inches separating them. They wouldn't do that at first, it just started on Valentines Day, but now sometimes they will sleep in the same bed. Ratty willing shares his toys, he will share his food with her too, as long as she waits until his head is out of the bowl before she tries to get some. She has her own place to eat and so does he but often they will switch bowls. Neither seems to care. So hang in there and continue with the monitoring and the other great advice you have gotten here. I like Ceaser Milan but like Nora do not like some of his methods. But he may be useful to watch with your children so they can learn about the dogs and more on being a pack leader. Good luck and keep us posted.

Janie,
Ratty,Cameo,Cutter and Nala Belle's Mom

Show your furbaby how much you love them brush their teeth today! It saves them pain "tomorrow." Janie L.
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/03/2008 3:02 PM  
Janie -- just look at the obstacles you had too! Rattagan's surgery was HUGE and trying to introduce a new member of the family to him during that time had to have been difficult.
Although we humans don't like to see one of our "babies" roll over in total submission to another dog... it's totally natural behavior and one that needs to be accepted as such by us humans.
You said it yourself, Janie -- when Cameo laid down and rolled over in submission to Rattagan... he walked away. If she had NOT done that... a fight more than likely would have incurred. They worked it out...

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
rattagan's mom


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
03/03/2008 3:39 PM  
They sure have Nora and getting better every day. Ratty's surgery was hard, Cameo had only been home 2 weeks when that was done. If we had known he needed surgery we would have done it before bringing her home but that didn't happen so we did what we had to do. Phil even built a playpen for her so Ratty could go out and potty without her pouncing him. Now she has learned that he is the big dog but they have both also learned that Mommy and Daddy are the biggest dogs and are doing really well. If they start getting too rough with each other all we have to do is say EASY in a firm voice and they stop. It just takes time, patience and love and in due course they will be the best of friends, I'm sure. Your advice and support along with others here on the site helped me get through a pretty tough time and I really don't think I could have done it without you all. My friends here will never know how much they loved even though I haven't met any of them. I love you all, Nora, Tracy, Mary, Valerie, Tracey, Morgan, Milly, Jan, and Jan, Dan, Paul and many more, I think you all know who you are.

So Tracy if I can get through that you can get through this, you have a place and people to talk to who really care. I wondered in the beginning if I had made a mistake in getting Cameo but looking at that face there is no way it was a mistake. Ratty has been the only dog in my life for 11 years and he has not been around a lot of other dogs. There were only 3 that he associated with in NC and none lived in his house though he did have a vistor on occasion. He always seemed to know that Bandit would be going home eventually though and didn't mind her. I think he thought Cameo would leave after a while too but he has finally gotten it in his little head that she lives here too.

Janie,
Ratty,Cameo,Cutter and Nala Belle's Mom

Show your furbaby how much you love them brush their teeth today! It saves them pain "tomorrow." Janie L.
rattagan's mom


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
03/03/2008 3:45 PM  
Oh and the only silly questions are the ones you don't ask.

Janie,
Ratty,Cameo,Cutter and Nala Belle's Mom

Show your furbaby how much you love them brush their teeth today! It saves them pain "tomorrow." Janie L.
momto3


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
03/03/2008 5:36 PM  
Posted By rattagan's mom on 03/03/2008 3:45 PM
Oh and the only silly questions are the ones you don't ask.



Very true Janie! Thanks

tiggarat


Bratty Ratty
Bratty Ratty
03/03/2008 6:26 PM  
I know that Buddy didn't want anything to do with any of the girls when we first got them...actually, he didn't want anything to do with them until they were house-trained. I don't know if it's just a funny coincidence or what. Maybe he gave in after 2 months and accepted that they were here to stay. Rosie accepted them after about a week.
When Buddy was still around, he was top dog, but without him, I saw a period where the girls were figuring out the new order. There were no fights, no power struggles, but still a time where no one seemed to be the alpha. I believe now it's Rosie is top dog, Molly is in the middle, and Lucy is the most submissive.
Janie - Buddy did the same thing as Ratty, flashing his teeth and growling at the pups when they came too close. I left them alone, but watched carefully. I think he was just setting him limits...he never hurt the girls...but he wanted them to know not to come too close when they were hyper. If they were calm, they could go up to him and give him kisses and cuddle with him.

Lisabeth

furbabies: Lucy and Molly (1 1/2 yr old decker ratties), and Rosie (3 yr old dobie)
Buddy - gone but never forgotten.

"I don't think he has any idea he's a dog, really. Of course, he thinks he has a rather odd figure for a man" - Dodie Smith
buttonbutt


Newbie
Newbie
03/04/2008 2:07 PM  
It took Zipper about 2 months to get over he psychological hunger; to realize Button's eyes (which she couldn't see easily) were not mean and she wasn't staring her down; to realize Button's very short nob of a tail didn't speak "doggie language" like all the dogs on the street; to realize Button just wanted to play with her and not fight; to realize there REALLY ARE dogs you don't have to fight to stay alive (Zipper was a stray as a very young puppy); to realize Button didn't want to steal all the food; to realize there was enough food to go around for everyone; to realize there was an endless supply of food in the kitchen; to figure out she didn't have to steal/hoard toys, food, treats or our affection; to realize if Button has one toy, there are others for her to play with. But they have worked out many of those "issues" now. We have had Zipper a little over a year now. So be patient with Pinky and Phoenix. Pack defining & redefining can really take some time........and to some degree, never really ends. It's an ongoing process in the dog world. LOL Like Nora said, I just like to keep an eye on it to be sure the occasional outbursts don't get out of hand and nobody gets hurt. I want them to "coexist peacefully", not necessarily "like each other".
alice4512


Firehouse Big Dog
Firehouse Big Dog
03/04/2008 2:17 PM  
Posted By buttonbutt on 03/04/2008 2:07 PM
It took Zipper about 2 months to get over he psychological hunger; to realize Button's eyes (which she couldn't see easily) were not mean and she wasn't staring her down; to realize Button's very short nob of a tail didn't speak "doggie language" like all the dogs on the street; to realize Button just wanted to play with her and not fight; to realize there REALLY ARE dogs you don't have to fight to stay alive (Zipper was a stray as a very young puppy); to realize Button didn't want to steal all the food; to realize there was enough food to go around for everyone; to realize there was an endless supply of food in the kitchen; to figure out she didn't have to steal/hoard toys, food, treats or our affection; to realize if Button has one toy, there are others for her to play with. But they have worked out many of those "issues" now. We have had Zipper a little over a year now. So be patient with Pinky and Phoenix. Pack defining & redefining can really take some time........and to some degree, never really ends. It's an ongoing process in the dog world. LOL Like Nora said, I just like to keep an eye on it to be sure the occasional outbursts don't get out of hand and nobody gets hurt. I want them to "coexist peacefully", not necessarily "like each other".

 

 

Why is it there can be 1,000 toys on the ground but they always want the same one?


The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too

~Mom to my good boy Fred and my crazy girl Alice~
Proud applications coordinator for Ratbone Rescue
Mitzy's Mom


PAWesome
PAWesome
03/04/2008 2:20 PM  
Peggy, it sounds like considering where Zipper "came from" she improved very quickly under your care!
It took little Skipper several months before he stopped flinching every time we raised a hand or arm around him or threw something around him (like throwing a sock into the clothes hamper).

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org
Pics of my current fosters:
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
buttonbutt


Newbie
Newbie
03/05/2008 10:27 AM  

She really did "come around" fast, Mary Beth.  She was quite self-confident and clearly a survivor.  From the moment they let her out of the shelter cage, we could clearly see she was not hand-shy and probably had never been human abused.

We got her mid-September and I was pretty sure we were going to be able to keep her by Thanksgiving.  I had my doubts the first month, I have to admit.  Button just kept on insisting Zipper play with her, and that went a long way toward getting Zip to feel comfortable in her new home.  Considering how well-honed her "survival skills" were at age 5½ mos, she must have been stray at least two months.  No dog learns to hunt for food that well in a week or two.  Honestly, it's a testimonial to her survival drive that such a young puppy was able to find enough food to live on and survive on her own without either being hit by a car or being killed by a larger stray animal.  These little pups are sooooooooooo tiny at 3 months of age!

rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
03/05/2008 10:36 AM  
Enjoyed Zipper's story, Peggy.....
I like the term "co-exist"... it works for humans too! LOL

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
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