Oooops -- I guess that should be "prong" collar.

Okay, I know there are a lot of people who think the "prong"collar is a horrible thing.  But, as stated before on this forum, IF USED PROPERLY, it is an excellant training tool.  I have testimony of that from today.

It's been a while since I've been able to walk the dogs.  Last time I walked them, I used the pinch collar on my Lab, Dixie (I always do because she is so large), but didn't need it with Katie (I had used one on her when training her to heel, but had not needed it lately).  So that is how we started out today.  Dixie did great, but Katie (with her regular collar) was pulling and tugging and choking herself.  We came back home and I put the pinch collar on her.  That is all it took.  Because she had been trained with the collar previously, once I put it on her she absolutely stopped pulling and stopped choking herself.  She tried to pull once time and that was it.  Honestly, these are wonderful aids and, in my opinion, much better than a dog choking itself with a regular collar.  A trainer taught me how to use one years ago and I have sworn by them since.  It is important to know the right way to use it when first starting out.  I would recommend anyone who has a dog that pulls and tugs at the leash to get a professional trainer to teach you to use one of these.  You will be amazed.

After putting the collars on both Dixie and Katie, we took a very pleasant walk with no pulling or tugging.  All three of us had fun!

Tauney,

As Jan stated: I would recommend anyone who has a dog that pulls and tugs at the leash to get a professional trainer to teach you to use one of these. 

These collars are not to be taken lightly, IF not used correctly they can and will cause severe damage, crushing the esophogus not to mention causing lacerations to the neck. 

As Jan also stated, they can be very useful in the right hands. I used one on my Malinois, not because he was a puller but to "keep" his attention while we were working (he was being trained for a narcotic detection dog)..he had wondering eyes and his thoughts would go right with them. After a few sessions he understood what he was suppose to be doing..paying attention to me, not what was going on around him.

So please if you are thinking of using one of these collars, get a professional trainer to help you, do your research on the trainer, watch him/her train, etc.

You are absolutely correct, it does depend on your dogs personality also. I would not recommend a prong collar for a "soft" dog as more damage than good can be caused. Good point!

Yes, as I said -- one must have guidance on how to use.  Actually, prong collars are less likely to crush the esophagus than chain choker collars, but again, there is a method for using them and one must know how to use them correctly.  I just think some people look at them and think they are torture devices, which they are not.  I have pulled one against the back of my hand, and it really is not painful.  It gets the dog's attention because it is a different sensation.  We've talked about this before on this site - and it has been pointed out that any means of training, if not done correctly, can cause a problem.  Not wanting to open a can of worms, here, just saying they have worked very well for me and I've used them on several dogs and know of several other dogs that were trained with them.  In fact, Nora, our former training moderator has used them -- and Nora, if you read this -- I think you will say the same thing I'm saying -- one must know the correct way to use.

I use and e-collar too.  First, my dogs have an invisible fence, so they have been trained to that.  But, when I go horseback riding and take them to my friends cabin, there is no fencing except plank fencing, which of course, they can get through.  So, I have trained them with the remote e-collar and they have learned the boundaries.  I have also worked with them using it to respond to commands. Again, because Dixie would try to run away down at the dock.  She knew she could swim down the bank and come up on the neighbor's property and run. (Who says dogs aren't smart?)  So, I worked with them both on learning to come with the e-collar.  Dixie no longer run off (without the collar on) and Katie had it from day one, so she has never run off from the dock either.  Again, now neither dog has to wear the e-collar at the dock.  When I go back to the cabin to start riding again, I will reinforce the boundaries, but probably will only have to use the tone.

I've been using a Halti on Dink and it's working  on his pulling on a leash.

I think my issue is with people who don't take the time to learn more about their dog's personality. Some people will strictly rely on one form of training, when in fact, the type of training you do - or at least the extremes of it - will depend on your dog's personality.  

People can harm their dogs in different ways... they overfeed them, feed them candy or other inappropriate food. Obesity causes many, many problems. Yet we don't see that as harm, somehow. We associate overfeeding with love. Therefore, praising a dog with a treat MUST be positive, and correcting a dog with a prong collar MUST be negative.   It's built in to the way we see the world. It's hard to separate the tool from its misuse, and to separate nurturing from overindulgence. Hence, a false distinction. We falsely separate correction and reward as though they were polar opposites. But they are not merely two sides of the same coin. They are the alloy that combines to make the coin. I see them as inseparable and essentially one thing. The ratio of one to the other is the only debate, as I see it....that, along with seeing each dog as an individual and customizing your approach appropriately. 

I have witnessed people walking their dogs (or I should say their dogs walking them...) and they are constantly leash popping their dogs... but think prong collars are negative.  Isn't leash popping negative?

I have trained both ways... with and without the prong collar, depending on the temperment of the dog... depending on the intelligence level of the dog.... depending on how *soft* a dog is.  Admittedly, a prong collar does look like a torture device. So how can it be a humane tool?  The answer lies in proper dog training methods.   Whenever you are training a dog your efforts will only be as successful as your ability to form positive associations with desired and acceptable behavior AND negative associations with behaviors you wish to get rid of. In order to form positive associations with 'good' behaviors that requires motivational training methods such as praise, toys, and treats. In order to form negative associations with 'bad' behaviors that requires corrections such as leash corrections, e-collar corrections, spray bottles, or the withholding of treats or praise.Therein lies the reason why the prong collar is a very humane tool. When it is appropriate to give a leash correction the pinch collar allows you to use the least amount of force yet get the greatest level of control. Its design leverages any tug you give on the leash so that you are able to give a very light correction and yet have it be meaningful and capable of teaching and training your dog.  Anytime that I can reduce the amount of force I use with a dog.... I'm all for it.

I use the prong collars on Schatzi and Sam. Both of them weren't responding to other training methods- trust me, I tried everything with Sam! I have the little rubber covers on the prongs of their collars now and they are always walked with the prong collars on. I do not leave it on them when they are off leash, however. When we are at the dog park or anywhere else, they only wear their regular collars. I remove the prong collars right outside the gates of the dog park.  If the leash is off, the prong collar is off.  That's how it is supposed to be.

Rowdy is trained with rewards and the Gentle Leader. He is a much more sensitive dog and I tried gentler method with him. For me, it seems like the bigger dogs needed a little more pressure to get them to listen- they were able to pull me around, so getting them to stop and listen was pretty difficult. I had a trainer introduce me to the idea of the prong collar after about a year of struggles with Sam

I think training dogs is just like working with people. Every one will be a bit different- some are stubborn, some are sensitive, and some are super mellow. You just have to alter your training to work with each dog.

You are 100%, absolutely, tee-totally correct, Bonita!

I don't understand the first sentence I bolded...in operant conditioning, praise for doing a desired behavior is positive reinforcement, and punishment for doing something undesired is positive punishment. Also, I certainly don't condone a steak dinner each time the dog walks with a slack leash, I break Copper's treats into pinches and she gets rewarded for desired behaviors. I certainly don't think high calorie treats are appropriate for a high rate of reinforcement if your dog has a weight problem. Many dogs also respond well to just verbal praise or toys as rewards, if becoming overweight is an issue for the pet. The second point I bolded because like I said, if you have to use a pinch collar, my goal would be to fade it as soon as possible. And I would consider a leash correction with a flat buckle collar using the least amount of force. I agree, leash corrections on an entire walk is not appropriate. I wonder if the people that are doing constant leash corrections have ever let their dogs know what it is they are supposed to be doing.

Just my opinions, again.

Erika

Thank you Nora - you explained that perfectly.  Every dog is different and what method may work with one will not work with another.   Personally I walk 3-4 dogs at a time and no way would I try to be "clicking" and "treating" every time one didn't pull (using only a nylon collar)...that would simply get me mobbed by all of them for a treat!

Also, I think it's appropriate to point out what could happen when a prong or chain collar is left on a loose or unsupervised dog but it's appropriate to refer to those types of collars (or the e-collar) as "cruel".  They are not cruel when used properly.  I've used chain collars most of my life and never injured a dog with one.  (And yes I agree that the prong collar is better but I didn't know about them until the last couple of years!) 

When I put the e-collar on my dogs, I usually don't have to do a thing - same with the prong collar -- as Nora said, it is just a reinforcement for them. I started our walk yesterday (and as mentioned, we hadn't walked in over two months due to Randy's illness) and Dixie never even attempted to pull. She KNEW what behavior was expected of her as soon as the collar went on and I didn't have to give her a single correction. She is a big dog and without the collar she gets excited and pulls because she knows she can. When we were walking regularly, Katie was to the point that I didn't need the collar, but after 2 mos off, she needs some refreshing.
BTW, it was our old Lab (now dead) where I learned to use the collar -- the trainer laughed and said she was wild as a buck, which she was. By the time we got through with her training (with the prong) I could walk her around the neighborhood with the leash thrown over my shoulder.
I believe in positive reinforcement also - and do use treats during the training process, mixed in with praise. Yesterday on our walk I had no treats, but both of my pups were lavished with praise when they walked correctly. Both ate it up!

Oh, and as I mentioned in an earlier post -- neither dog has to wear the e-collar down to the lake now. 

And MB, my point on the choker collar -- I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those if used properly, just that I acutally think it is easier to use the prong collar.