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Subject: Braeli... acting strange... advice! (LONG SORRY).
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braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/25/2008 7:20 AM  

hey guys... i like to think that my wife and i are good parents to our furbabies... they are not perfect and are still learning... make their mistakes... they both seem happy i think... and we treat them very well... bryson is a happy go lucky dog and so is braeli usually... but she does things that make me question if we are doing something wrong or if something is wrong with her... like this:

the routine in the morning has always been the same. 6am pee/poop outside, breakfast and then pee/poop at 7am. lately braeli will pee outside but refuses to walk around and poop. she stands there with this look, ears back, and will not move. i do get frustrated as its early and i need to get ready for work... i will sometimes have a "tone" to my voice but will usually have a nicer voice and pet her under her chin and try to coax her to go. either way after 15 mins we are back in and no poop. bryson does both and sits patiently at the door. btwn that time and 7am we put their food down and where she used to eat right away and fast, she doesnt anymore. bryson will eat and she will sit under the bed in the room and not move. she will come and greet us and then go back under the bed. i guess its her "safe" spot... but safe from what? maybe she is just tired and cant be bothered there? she has become very possessive over food with bryson and will sometimes lay next to it even if shes not eating to make sure he doesnt. she also in that time period goes to poop on the pee pads we leave for them in case of an accident which they use thankfully! she has always been submissive to guests and tucks her ears and stuff... but it seems that that submissivness is becoming her personality. at least we feel that way.

another note... they have been chewing on bully sticks and rawhides alot... they love'em... we wont give them when we are not home because they fight over them... i have noticed more "stuff" being chewed... i alwasy thought it was bryson but i caught braeli in the act. so she is now chewing on furniture (old stuff we intentionally put there for that reason). maybe her mouth is bothering her?!

In the afternoons she is fine to go out and do both pee/poop and will play all night... but at feeding time its the same thing. bryosn eats/finishes... she eats (picks) and guards the food unless you sit with her. she does walk around with her ears tucked alot now. my wife babies her alot. im not sure if that plays into it. I am the alpha in the house and have the "look" and "stern bark". when they are bad its me they hear and she gets very afraid if she does here me wether its a stern voice to her or bryson... i look at her and i think she acts like a dog that was abused before but i know she wasnt... she was never like this but for a month or less now. am i overreacting?  has she just formed her own schedule at this point and i push the issue of pee/poop/food? maybe she only needs 1 meal now? maybe she can hold it better than bryson?

oh and let me say this... im not sure which of the 2 are dominant over the other. sometimes braeli takes control and bryson sits back and vice versa... i think they are happy as equals... bith are jealous when one gets attention over the other... but i dont know if that plays into this.

any advice will help. ideas. what we are doing right/wrong. her actions. dont beat around the bush. say whatever good/bad. thanks in advance! gianni


"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
winnihoohoo


Bratty Ratty
Bratty Ratty
06/25/2008 7:38 AM  
She knows you are getting ready to leave for work, and is not wanting you to go. Brielle tries to pull this on me sometimes. I just yell who wants a treat, and out from under the bed she comes, and I toss the treat into her crate, and close the door. It is all part of separation anxiety. They are not robots..they are sly little dogs, when they wanna be. You just have to be the alpha dog...
Mitzy's Mom


Alpha Feist
Alpha Feist
06/25/2008 7:55 AM  

A couple of thoughts.  Maybe only feed at night...that might inprove her appetite and she might not have to poop in the am.  Also, rule out anything medical....could she be teething?  Don't remember how old she is.  Maybe she has a tooth problem.  JMO but I wouldn't feed the rawhides...I know some people do and their dogs never have a problem but many do and it's not worth the risk.

Some dogs get fairly rebelious, pushing their boundaries, at 1-2 years old.  Not saying it's that but something to consider. 


Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom
www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/25/2008 8:25 AM  
Posted By Mitzy's Mom on 06/25/2008 7:55 AM

A couple of thoughts.  Maybe only feed at night...that might inprove her appetite and she might not have to poop in the am.  Also, rule out anything medical....could she be teething?  Don't remember how old she is.  Maybe she has a tooth problem.  JMO but I wouldn't feed the rawhides...I know some people do and their dogs never have a problem but many do and it's not worth the risk.

Some dogs get fairly rebelious, pushing their boundaries, at 1-2 years old.  Not saying it's that but something to consider. 


thank you both.

winni... i never thought of that. her way of "not" saying goodbye.. or having resentment per say... i will try the treat thing and see what happens.

mitzy... she is 7mos... that is why we are still feeding 1/4 cup 2x a day still... we were told until about 1 year.

she lost and grew all her teeth in already... i know they will chew./teeth until about a year... the only prob dentally is that she has all 4 top canines (baby/adult). i will not feed rawhide bones... we do feed them the rolls... no small parts that break off like the bones ones... very tough... MADE IN USA!!!! some in brazil depending on what i can find.... but they love them more than bullys!!!! i always fed my shuh tzu the bone ones and 19 years no probs. i know its an opinion thing... she is STUBBORN to say the least.


"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
Mitzy's Mom


Alpha Feist
Alpha Feist
06/25/2008 9:15 AM  
Well, I can sympathize with the pooping issue. My Mayfly doesn't like getting up early and having to pee AND poop before I leave for work. The answer for her is to take her on a short walk...almost always causes her to poop.

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom
www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org
tiggarat


Bratty Ratty
Bratty Ratty
06/25/2008 3:06 PM  
is she spayed? if not, she could be getting ready to come into heat...Rosie (only one that's not spayed) gets moody and refuses to eat nearly a month before the bleeding starts...

Lisabeth

furbabies: Lucy and Molly (1 1/2 yr old decker ratties), and Rosie (3 yr old dobie)
Buddy - gone but never forgotten.

"I don't think he has any idea he's a dog, really. Of course, he thinks he has a rather odd figure for a man" - Dodie Smith
Mitzy's Mom


Alpha Feist
Alpha Feist
06/25/2008 3:18 PM  
Definitely could be acting funny if she's coming into heat...I had assumed she was spayed. And you know what happens we assume!

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom
www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org
RatsRule!


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/25/2008 3:19 PM  
When one of mine is a little slow going with the pooh in the am, I give a good belly rub (whether standing or laying down) while outside, and that seems to help too. Even at a year old they can still be chewing on things, so at 7 mo I'd say that's totally normal to be chewing. I think what was said earlier about the rawhides has more to do with digestion and what not rather than parts to swallow. You might ask around about those some more. Not sure about the guarding of food. Never experienced that one myself or heard of it before. I wish you luck! Sounds like you are a very good parent BTW. Keep being the alpha- no babying. It can cause more harm than good.

~~ Life is awesome when you share it with a couple of Ratties! ~~
Terri, proud mom of Chloe & Bonnie!
````````````````````````````````````````````
Ratbone Rescues Application Coordinator
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/26/2008 7:23 AM  
hey evryone... oh yes she is spayed!!! she was actually had an early spay (a more common occurance than we think). i have tried the belly rubs... i have come to the conclusion that she just doesnt LIKE WET GRASS!!!! the afternoons she is fine, unless its raining! in the AM the dew is on the grass... she will walk 2 steps, pee, and try to get back on the pavement... i mowed it really short for her but still she wont walk... but as soon as we are inside with 5 mins she poops on the piddle pads. we we outside this morning for 20 mins... i picked her up and put her in teh "less" grassy areas ans still nothing.. she stand there and looks at me... if i go to pet her she lifts up to be picked up... spoiled little girl!!! i cant understand how a dog wont walk in wet grass?!?!?!?

"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
06/26/2008 8:03 AM  

Since this was not posted in the training section... I'm just now seeing it.  I often don't look at the "just chat" section.... (just so you'll know...)  I see several things in your words that I'll try to address.  I'm not there so obviously cannot know what is triggering the behavior... so I have only your description to go on.

*************************

hey guys... i like to think that my wife and i are good parents to our furbabies... they are not perfect and are still learning... make their mistakes... they both seem happy i think... and we treat them very well... bryson is a happy go lucky dog and so is braeli usually... but she does things that make me question if we are doing something wrong or if something is wrong with her (could be a bit of both!)... like this:

the routine in the morning has always been the same. 6am pee/poop outside, breakfast and then pee/poop at 7am. lately braeli will pee outside but refuses to walk around and poop. she stands there with this look, ears back, and will not move. i do get frustrated as its early and i need to get ready for work... i will sometimes have a "tone" to my voice but will usually have a nicer voice and pet her under her chin and try to coax her to go. either way after 15 mins we are back in and no poop. bryson does both and sits patiently at the door. btwn that time and 7am we put their food down and where she used to eat right away and fast, she doesnt anymore. bryson will eat and she will sit under the bed in the room and not move. she will come and greet us and then go back under the bed. i guess its her "safe" spot... but safe from what? maybe she is just tired and cant be bothered there? she has become very possessive over food with bryson and will sometimes lay next to it even if shes not eating to make sure he doesnt. she also in that time period goes to poop on the pee pads we leave for them in case of an accident which they use thankfully! she has always been submissive to guests and tucks her ears and stuff... but it seems that that submissivness is becoming her personality. at least we feel that way.  Although we'd like for all of our dogs to be on the same schedule (and it's often accomplishable)... sometimes it just doesn't work that way.  But what I'm hearing is that Braeli is NOT doing her business and then the dogs come inside and you feed them.    Since you have an hour between 6 and 7 (and yes... I do realize you have to get ready for work...) I would try taking Bryson out first and let him do his business and then bring him back inside.  Then I would take Braeli out and see what happens.  If after several minutes she does not poop... bring her in and place her in her crate while you proceed to get ready for work.  (You don't mention a crate... I would hope you would have one).  I would NOT put any food down for her.  In about 15 minutes... try again.  Take her alone.   If she still doesn't do anything, I would return her to her crate.  I would not feed her. (I only feed my dogs in the evenings.  Your dogs are old enough to be fed only at night... plus at night you aren't as rushed and have more time for supervision).  It sounds like you have unknowingly encouraged this behavior... which we humans often do!

another note... they have been chewing on bully sticks and rawhides (I would not feed rawhide... do your research and find out why) alot... they love'em... we wont give them when we are not home because they fight over them... i have noticed more "stuff" being chewed... i alwasy thought it was bryson but i caught braeli in the act. so she is now chewing on furniture (old stuff we intentionally put there for that reason). maybe her mouth is bothering her?!  (if this is happening while you are at home... sounds like closer supervision is needed).

In the afternoons she is fine to go out and do both pee/poop and will play all night... but at feeding time its the same thing. bryosn eats/finishes... she eats (picks) and guards the food unless you sit with her. Do NOT allow her to do this.  If she doesn't eat her food... put it up.  Don't allow her to guard it and certainly you don't need to be sitting with her.  By doing so you are encouraging the behavior.  I also would feed her in a separate room... if she doesn't eat her food, take it up.  she does walk around with her ears tucked alot now. my wife babies her alot. im not sure if that plays into it. I am the alpha in the house and have the "look" and "stern bark". when they are bad its me they hear and she gets very afraid if she does here me wether its a stern voice to her or bryson... i look at her and i think she acts like a dog that was abused before but i know she wasnt... she was never like this but for a month or less now. am i overreacting?  has she just formed her own schedule at this point and i push the issue of pee/poop/food? maybe she only needs 1 meal now? I always move to one meal a day... evening meal... after the puppyhood stage is over.  maybe she can hold it better than bryson? That could very well be.  Some dogs DO "hold it" better than others.  But I think she's also pushing your buttons.

oh and let me say this... im not sure which of the 2 are dominant over the other. sometimes braeli takes control and bryson sits back and vice versa... i think they are happy as equals... bith are jealous when one gets attention over the other... but i dont know if that plays into this. It could be... but not being there to see... I have no way of knowing.  Jealousy/rivalry does often play into our dogs' behaviors when there are multiple dogs in a home.

any advice will help. ideas. what we are doing right/wrong. her actions. dont beat around the bush. You will find I seldom beat around the bush when it comes to training issues... haha say whatever good/bad. thanks in advance! gianni

PLEASE if you haven't already.... crate train your dogs.  It can prevent  numerous unacceptable behaviors.  Braeli should have her own "safe place" (her crate)... which should NOT be underneath your bed.  I would discourage this behavior... keep the bedroom door closed if you have to.  Bring our your dog's confidence... play ball.... play tug of war with a rope.  Reward  her for the good behavior she displays and reinforce it with verbal commands.  I would NOT leave them loose together alone during the day, because you aren't there to supervise and there may be things going on that is helping to develop this behavior.  You can't possibly know what those things are if you aren't  there.  Since you never mentioned crates in your post... I am assuming you don't use them.  If I am wrong... I apologize... but I'm not seeing any mention of them whatsoever.  You need to work on building Braeli's confidence level.. and there are TONS of things you can do towards this goal.  It sounds to me as though her personality is developing as she matures and  there are obviously some genetics that play into this also.

Good luck to you!

 



~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/26/2008 8:17 AM  
Posted By rattytatty on 06/26/2008 8:03 AM

Since this was not posted in the training section... I'm just now seeing it.  I often don't look at the "just chat" section.... (just so you'll know...)  I see several things in your words that I'll try to address.  I'm not there so obviously cannot know what is triggering the behavior... so I have only your description to go on. NOTED...

Although we'd like for all of our dogs to be on the same schedule (and it's often accomplishable)... sometimes it just doesn't work that way.  But what I'm hearing is that Braeli is NOT doing her business and then the dogs come inside and you feed them.    Since you have an hour between 6 and 7 (and yes... I do realize you have to get ready for work...) I would try taking Bryson out first and let him do his business and then bring him back inside.  Then I would take Braeli out and see what happens.  If after several minutes she does not poop... bring her in and place her in her crate while you proceed to get ready for work.  (You don't mention a crate... I would hope you would have one).  I would NOT put any food down for her.  In about 15 minutes... try again.  Take her alone.   If she still doesn't do anything, I would return her to her crate.  I would not feed her. (I only feed my dogs in the evenings.  Your dogs are old enough to be fed only at night... plus at night you aren't as rushed and have more time for supervision).  It sounds like you have unknowingly encouraged this behavior... which we humans often do! I CAN TRY THIS BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH. I TRY TO TAKE THEM AS SOON AS THEY WAKE UP. SHE DOES HER PEEING NO PROB. ITS THE POOPING THATS IS THE PROB. IF I DONT TAKE HER WITH BRYSON SHE WILL PEE IN THE ROOM. MY WIFE AND I WERE JUST DISCUSSING 1 MEAL A DAY FOR THEM STARTING TOMORROW. NO CRATES. I KNOW WE DIFFER ON THIS AND WE HAD OUR DISCUSSIONS ON IT. NEVER HAD TO USE THEM BEFORE. WONT USE THEM NOW. WE ARE OUT OF TEH HOUSE FOR 8 HRS. NOT FAIR TO PUT THEM IN A CAGE FOR THAT LONG. THEY HAVE A ROOM TO THEMSELVES TOGETHER.

(I would not feed rawhide... do your research and find out why)  (if this is happening while you are at home... sounds like closer supervision is needed). AGAIN, I NEVER HAD ANY PROBS WITH RAWHIDES. TO EACH THERE OWN.

 Do NOT allow her to do this.  If she doesn't eat her food... put it up.  Don't allow her to guard it and certainly you don't need to be sitting with her.  By doing so you are encouraging the behavior.  I also would feed her in a separate room... if she doesn't eat her food, take it up.   I always move to one meal a day... evening meal... after the puppyhood stage is over.  That could very well be.  Some dogs DO "hold it" better than others.  But I think she's also pushing your buttons.   BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH ON SEPARATE EATING SCHEDULES IT SEEMS WE USUALLY PLACE THE FOOD DOWN AND LET THE EVENING BE A SELF FEED. I KNWO THIS IS OUR MISTAKE FROM TEH START. NOW THEY THINK THEY CAN PICK WHENEVER THEY WANT. I THINK IF THEY DONT EAT UNTIL 5PM ALL DAY IT WILL BE A DIFFERENT STORY.

You will find I seldom beat around the bush when it comes to training issues... haha I KNOW AND ITS APPRECIATED!

which should NOT be underneath your bed.  I would discourage this behavior... keep the bedroom door closed if you have to.  Bring our your dog's confidence... play ball.... play tug of war with a rope.  Reward  her for the good behavior she displays and reinforce it with verbal commands.  I would NOT leave them loose together alone during the day, because you aren't there to supervise and there may be things going on that is helping to develop this behavior.  You can't possibly know what those things are if you aren't  there.  Since you never mentioned crates in your post... I am assuming you don't use them.  If I am wrong... I apologize... but I'm not seeing any mention of them whatsoever.  You need to work on building Braeli's confidence level.. and there are TONS of things you can do towards this goal.  It sounds to me as though her personality is developing as she matures and  there are obviously some genetics that play into this also. WELL THE ROOM AGAIN IS THEIR CRATE. SHE USED TO SLEEP INSIDE A PILLOW CASE BUT THEY DESTROYED THAT SO NOW SHE FINDS A BLANKET UNDER THE BED COMFORTABLE. BRYSON STAYS ONTOP OF THE BED. SHE IS ALWAYS PRAISED FOR THE GOOD!!! PLAYING MORE WILL HELP TOO? WHEN YOU SAY "GENETICS INVOLVED" WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TOO? PERSONLITY? OR HABITS (PEE/POOP/EATING)? CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT ONE?

 

 


"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
Mitzy's Mom


Alpha Feist
Alpha Feist
06/26/2008 8:25 AM  
Just jumping in here because I saw the statement on wet grass. I have 2 dogs (Mayfly and Morgandy, the puppy foster) who do NOT like to potty on wet grass. Mayfly has finally learned it's better to go and get it over with but the pup is being very stubborn about it. Finally this morning she peed outside in the wet (we'd had a storm last night). They can be stubborn about this! JMO

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom
www.ratbonerescues.com; www.newrattitude.org
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
06/26/2008 8:32 AM  
Posted By braeli_bryson on 06/26/2008 8:17 AM
Posted By rattytatty on 06/26/2008 8:03 AM

Since this was not posted in the training section... I'm just now seeing it.  I often don't look at the "just chat" section.... (just so you'll know...)  I see several things in your words that I'll try to address.  I'm not there so obviously cannot know what is triggering the behavior... so I have only your description to go on. NOTED...

Although we'd like for all of our dogs to be on the same schedule (and it's often accomplishable)... sometimes it just doesn't work that way.  But what I'm hearing is that Braeli is NOT doing her business and then the dogs come inside and you feed them.    Since you have an hour between 6 and 7 (and yes... I do realize you have to get ready for work...) I would try taking Bryson out first and let him do his business and then bring him back inside.  Then I would take Braeli out and see what happens.  If after several minutes she does not poop... bring her in and place her in her crate while you proceed to get ready for work.  (You don't mention a crate... I would hope you would have one).  I would NOT put any food down for her.  In about 15 minutes... try again.  Take her alone.   If she still doesn't do anything, I would return her to her crate.  I would not feed her. (I only feed my dogs in the evenings.  Your dogs are old enough to be fed only at night... plus at night you aren't as rushed and have more time for supervision).  It sounds like you have unknowingly encouraged this behavior... which we humans often do! I CAN TRY THIS BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH. I TRY TO TAKE THEM AS SOON AS THEY WAKE UP. SHE DOES HER PEEING NO PROB. ITS THE POOPING THATS IS THE PROB. IF I DONT TAKE HER WITH BRYSON SHE WILL PEE IN THE ROOM. MY WIFE AND I WERE JUST DISCUSSING 1 MEAL A DAY FOR THEM STARTING TOMORROW. NO CRATES. I KNOW WE DIFFER ON THIS AND WE HAD OUR DISCUSSIONS ON IT. NEVER HAD TO USE THEM BEFORE. WONT USE THEM NOW. WE ARE OUT OF TEH HOUSE FOR 8 HRS. NOT FAIR TO PUT THEM IN A CAGE FOR THAT LONG. There is not a trainer that I know  that would agree with that analogy... but that being your position, I won't try to change your opinion.  THEY HAVE A ROOM TO THEMSELVES TOGETHER.  Yes... and they are not supervised in it.  You are seeing things develop in the dog's personality you haven't seen before and you are asking for advice.  You aren't with them 8 hours of the day and they are loose together.  How can you possibly know what's happening in your absence?  So how can you know what is happening that is causing this change in behavior?

(I would not feed rawhide... do your research and find out why)  (if this is happening while you are at home... sounds like closer supervision is needed). AGAIN, I NEVER HAD ANY PROBS WITH RAWHIDES. TO EACH THERE OWN.  I have a friend who never had any problems either.... until part of one got lodged in the intestine and she didn't get the dog to the vet fast enough and the dog died.  To me... it's simply not worth the risk.  But you are correct... to each his/her own.  Again... you asked for advice and I offered it.  Doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

 Do NOT allow her to do this.  If she doesn't eat her food... put it up.  Don't allow her to guard it and certainly you don't need to be sitting with her.  By doing so you are encouraging the behavior.  I also would feed her in a separate room... if she doesn't eat her food, take it up.   I always move to one meal a day... evening meal... after the puppyhood stage is over.  That could very well be.  Some dogs DO "hold it" better than others.  But I think she's also pushing your buttons.   BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH ON SEPARATE EATING SCHEDULES IT SEEMS WE USUALLY PLACE THE FOOD DOWN AND LET THE EVENING BE A SELF FEED. I KNWO THIS IS OUR MISTAKE FROM TEH START.  Yes... you are correct. NOW THEY THINK THEY CAN PICK WHENEVER THEY WANT. I THINK IF THEY DONT EAT UNTIL 5PM ALL DAY IT WILL BE A DIFFERENT STORY.

You will find I seldom beat around the bush when it comes to training issues... haha I KNOW AND ITS APPRECIATED!

which should NOT be underneath your bed.  I would discourage this behavior... keep the bedroom door closed if you have to.  Bring our your dog's confidence... play ball.... play tug of war with a rope.  Reward  her for the good behavior she displays and reinforce it with verbal commands.  I would NOT leave them loose together alone during the day, because you aren't there to supervise and there may be things going on that is helping to develop this behavior.  You can't possibly know what those things are if you aren't  there.  Since you never mentioned crates in your post... I am assuming you don't use them.  If I am wrong... I apologize... but I'm not seeing any mention of them whatsoever.  You need to work on building Braeli's confidence level.. and there are TONS of things you can do towards this goal.  It sounds to me as though her personality is developing as she matures and  there are obviously some genetics that play into this also. WELL THE ROOM AGAIN IS THEIR CRATE. SHE USED TO SLEEP INSIDE A PILLOW CASE BUT THEY DESTROYED THAT SO NOW SHE FINDS A BLANKET UNDER THE BED COMFORTABLE. BRYSON STAYS ONTOP OF THE BED. SHE IS ALWAYS PRAISED FOR THE GOOD!!! PLAYING MORE WILL HELP TOO? WHEN YOU SAY "GENETICS INVOLVED" WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TOO? PERSONLITY? OR HABITS (PEE/POOP/EATING)? CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT ONE?  Personality traits are often inherited and don't fully develop until the dog matures.  Has NOTHING to do with how often a dog does or does not poop/pee/eat, etc. 

 

 



~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/26/2008 8:56 AM  
thanks nora... and no need to write "Again... you asked for advice and I offered it. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it"... i do truly value your knowledge and opinion... no need to be "soft" with me. i take no hard feelilngs if someone wants to "put me in my spot" or as you did "simply share your opinion and give advice"...

as for the supervision part of it... i actually have a web cam set up... unfortunately the host is down for 2 months now and waiting for t to be fixed... but i put thei so i can watch whos dooing what when we are not there... it was great being able to see what they do all day besides sleep!!! now with the change in personality and teh camera not working i have no idea whats going on...

"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
06/26/2008 9:10 AM  
It is NEVER my intent to put ANYone "in their spot" so to speak....
It's always hard to know how to respond to people when I cannot be there to know what is triggering specific behavior.... I just do the best I can and offer the best advice I know how to offer under limited circumstances.
I have to add though....watching your dogs with a webcam (although better than nothing) is not an ideal situation. You can't BE there quick enough to correct something if it happens. If you have one dog who is dominant and one dog who isn't... and they are left alone together for long periods of time with no one available to "intervene" ... then (1) You have absolutely no control over what happens and therefore can't "fix" it... because trying to do anything after you get home would be totally futile... (2) litte behaviors between the two dogs which you are probably not trained to pick up on... DO INDEED mold the dog's personalities and how they interact with each other and their humans.
SOMEthing is causing the change in behavior... and you don't know what...
So my advice would be in ANY situation such as this.... to keep the dogs crated (which you don't agree with... I know...) separated from each other except during the times when they can be supervised by you and you are actually present to step in if you need to.
In the meantime... if in fact this behavior (Braeli becoming more subdued.. submissive...guarded...) is an inherited personality characteristic... there are things you can do to help her. You can research these things .. lots of good information online... lots of wonderful articles written by some great people.
There's a book called "For the Love of a Dog" which is a wonderful resource into canine behavior....I would highly recommend it to you or anyone else.


~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/26/2008 9:31 AM  
Posted By rattytatty on 06/26/2008 9:10 AM
It is NEVER my intent to put ANYone "in their spot" so to speak....  no silly.. i didnt mean that towards you!
It's always hard to know how to respond to people when I cannot be there to know what is triggering specific behavior.... I just do the best I can and offer the best advice I know how to offer under limited circumstances.
I have to add though....watching your dogs with a webcam (although better than nothing) is not an ideal situation. You can't BE there quick enough to correct something if it happens. If you have one dog who is dominant and one dog who isn't... and they are left alone together for long periods of time with no one available to "intervene" ... then (1) You have absolutely no control over what happens and therefore can't "fix" it... because trying to do anything after you get home would be totally futile... (2) litte behaviors between the two dogs which you are probably not trained to pick up on... DO INDEED mold the dog's personalities and how they interact with each other and their humans.
SOMEthing is causing the change in behavior... and you don't know what... understood... the camera actaully allows me to hear them but not respond... there is  a camera you can speak through which would have been nice!!!! but dont the 2dogs dogs need to have their pecking order? which they ultimately work out themselves anyway? so 1 dog will always be "dominant" (asking to learn).
So my advice would be in ANY situation such as this.... to keep the dogs crated (which you don't agree with... I know...) separated from each other except during the times when they can be supervised by you and you are actually present to step in if you need to.
In the meantime... if in fact this behavior (Braeli becoming more subdued.. submissive...guarded...) is an inherited personality characteristic... there are things you can do to help her. You can research these things .. lots of good information online... lots of wonderful articles written by some great people.
There's a book called "For the Love of a Dog" which is a wonderful resource into canine behavior....I would highly recommend it to you or anyone else. Nora, thank you as always!

"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
06/26/2008 9:48 AM  

 Individual personality, as well as breed characteristics, are important factors.  The dog that demands to be fed first, petted first and through the door first is usually the dominant dog. Remember that the rankings may be different in different contexts (one dog may control food, while another may control resting places) and they may change over time.  So yes... within a pack one dog is usually at the top of the pecking order... BUT you need to be alpha over both dogs.  Dogs usually establish their dominance hierarchies through a series of "ritualized" behaviors that include body postures and vocalizations that don’t result in injury.  For example... one dog may "stand over" another by placing his paws or neck on the shoulders of the other.  This body language indicates his dominance over the other dog.

You are right ... you DO need to support the dominance hierarchy.  You need to support whatever dominance hierarchy or what I call "pecking order" your dogs establish for themselves.  Don't "undermine" their pecking order by attempting to treat them equally or by preventing the dominant dog from asserting his position.  Dominant dogs can... and should.. be allowed to take toys away from subordinate dogs... and to push and receive attention and petting from the owner... to control favorite sleeping places... toys and other valuable resources (from the dog's point of view).  We humans need to support the dominant dog's status by allowing this to occur.

You cannot choose which dog you want to be dominant. The dogs will establish this among themselves, and any attempt to interfere may result in conflict. 

The problem arises when rivalry occurs and this happens sometimes within the pack.  Humans cannot and should not allow any injury or extreme "bullying" to occur and that's why it's important to keep the dogs separated (in my opinion) during our absences.  

I know of a situation, (although I did not know the people personally)... where a couple owned two Boston Terriers and they were littermates... both 8 years of age.  They were never crated and were well behaved being left along at home during the day while the people worked.  They came home one day ... the female Boston was dead and blood was all over the place, and was all over the male Boston.  They never knew what happened.  (the male was the dominant of the two).  I realize this is an isolated incident... I also realize the rawhide situation was one incident... the same as my friend's dog Ellie who was left uncrated in a hotel room and got into a bag of pretzels and suffocated and she returned to the hotel room to find the dog dead on the floor with it's head in the bag ... (another isolated incident).  We all have our own "horror stories" we can relate....

Much of what I've learned throughout the years has been thru trial and error, unfortunately.  Until I was 40 years of age, I never crated a dog... and fed my dogs pretty much whatever I had on hand... whenever I wanted to feed them.  I'd like to think I've come a little ways since then! LOL

 



~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, NA, NAJ
braeli_bryson


Ratastic
Ratastic
06/26/2008 1:54 PM  
hmmmm... it def confuses me with these 2 as to the dominance... its no clear line so we give/do everything equally for them and then they figure it out from there... they both at different times go through the door 1st, sometimes together! they both dominate toys... but during play bryson takes control... during chewing bully sticks or rawhides braeli dominates (bryson sits their crying to her)... during food its a toss up... who ever gets there 1st usually eats 1st... they patiently wait for one another to finish... or will sit side by side (if braeli isnt in a mood of protection)... greetings, well bryson stands over braeli to greet but backs away and allows her to be greeted 1st... during play with one another bryson dominates play i think due to size but braeli determines "when" he is "allowed" to play with her... she gets nasty if she doesnt want to. they are both dominant in their own ways for certain things i guess... i guess thats why i consider them equals... maybe braeli has subsided to brysons dominance in the morning and just chills out under the bed to let him greet, eat, play etc?!?!
oh and btw... i am always the alpha... i treat them like kids but dont take crap..lol if i walk into a room and something is not right they hide behind me with there ears tucked... they listen to me mnore than my wife... bryson will actually have something in his mouth in the yard and if i want to see it and sternly say "bad... bring it to papa"... he will run it up the deck for me!!! i love that lil PITA!!!!! thank you again nora...

"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
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