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Subject: Please Read -- Being "Post-Legged" (Long)
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rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
08/12/2007 8:37 AM  

Please take a good look at this handsome boy. This is Bailey, my rat terrier. I think he's very handsome. Now look at his back legs... see how straight the angulation is? He is what the vet calls "post legged", and it is a conformation defect, and this poor angulation is more than likely the reason Bailey injured his right rear thigh.

He talked to me a long time about this yesterday, and enlightened me to some things I did not know. I'm sharing this information with you because it might be beneficial to someone else. He talked about how good (correct) conformation starts with good angulation. If a dog has poor running gear, no matter how much ability and desire it has, its ability is hampered. Angulation refers to the way a dog's bones and joints fit together in relation to the job they are supposed to do. Good angulation allows a dog to take a full, long stride with its front legs, and to push off with greater strength and power with the hind legs. It enables a dog to move more freely, with more speed and more endurance. He told me that a dog with poor angulation will be 33% less efficient at his job, and in today's job market, most of us won't have a job if we don't give 100%. It's no different with what we expect our dogs to do. If we expect them to give 100% in a particular activity (such as agility), we need to have a dog with the conformation that will allow them to do their job.

Good angulation also provides shock absorption for the dog's bones and joints. Leg bones that are aligned in a perfectly straight column, with little or no angle (like Bailey's are), have little shock absorption and not much leverage for movement either.  In ordinary, common day life... this might not matter.  But if you have a dog who is doing agility like mine is, and who is VERY VERY active... it does matter. The chance for injury is higher, and if I continue with Bailey in agility, there are several precautions I'm going to have to take, AND I must accept the fact that there are some things he won't be able to do as effectively (such as going down the a-frame.... he races up the a-frame but creeps down the other side, and now I know why..). So I now know not to push him. Actually, my trainer had alluded to this on several occasions, so the vet merely confirmed what she already knew. I could care less about Bailey being post legged. I love him just the same as if he were "perfect". But you need to know this is something that is common with this breed... in fact I've noticed it in several pictures of other dogs that have been posted on the forum, but didn't know about it then. I post this information so if you DO have a dog who has only a 10% angulation (as Bailey does) ... (30% is preferred)... just be careful not to ask more of your furbaby that he/she can deliver activity-wise. At least be aware of it.

As for us? We'll continue with Bailey's agility, but will take extra precautions. We will NOT stretch cold muscles, and we WILL be sure to stretch after each session of strenuous activity. I will NOT ask Bailey to fly down the a-frame... I won't ask more of him than he is able to deliver. Thanks for taking the time to read this.  I posted it because it's new knowledge for me, and might be beneficial to you too!   I think it's important to share information such as this with our forum members.

My vet told me we could continue our agility journey, but to do so will require some specific extra precautions.  I'm willing to do that in order not to subject Bailey to further injuries.   Some of you are considering agility for your dogs... please be sure if your dog's angulation isn't what it should be... take these extra precautions too!  Have your vet check out your dog's angulation before starting any strenuous activity.  Also, if you have a dog which is a jumper (and most rat terriers are!)... please have it checked out next time you visit your vet.

By the way, my vet said this poor angulation is not as common in the TYPE B ratties.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

 

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Mitzy's Mom


PAWesome
PAWesome
08/12/2007 8:53 AM  

Very interesting Nora.  It's actually much the same with horses, you want straight legs in front with a nicely sloping shoulder but not too straight behind - you want good "hocks".  I've noticed that Mitzy and Skipper are VERY straight in the hind legs but never worried about it as I'm not asking anything athletic of them except long walks, but I had thought that if they were being ridden the trot would be very bumpy...LOL! 

That bend in the back means a lot for horses, especially jumpers, dressage horses, etc. so I would guess it would affect how a dog jumps too,  just never thought about that.

Good information to have!


Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom, New Rattitude
Check out our ratties at www.newrattitude.org
rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
08/12/2007 8:57 AM  

Absolutely, Mary Beth! (I got quite an education yesterday!). I knew about this and the importance of it with horses, but honestly because I've never really been that concerned with conformation with dogs... I never researched it. I cried at first.. thinking our agility jourrney was over, but he assured me it wasn't. That with extra precaution we could continue.  There will simply be some things he won't be able to do as well as some other dogs because he simply can't.... he will be structurely limited.  I talked with Mel (trainer) yesterday about this for a long time.  She thinks Bailey will do just fine anyway, and agrees  we should take these precautions and she's very knowledgeable about stretching, etc. (being the canine massage therapist that she is).  I'm fortunate to have her in my corner.

 I've had overnight to absorb all this information and come to terms with it... and felt it was good information to share with others.

Stands to reason that the angulation for dogs should be good... same as with horses!

swatson6


Attention Starved
Attention Starved
08/12/2007 9:01 AM  
Thanks Nora, very interesting!

Sarah
Mom to Jack, Jeter and foster mom to Teagan



Paul


Feisty
Feisty
08/12/2007 9:15 AM  

WOW, Nora.  Thanks so much for sharing all this information.  I'm still trying to digest it all---that's a lot to think about.  At least Bailey is better and can continue with what he loves to do, even with precautions to be taken.


"Train now, or forever hold your leash"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/doberdad/
mario07


Bratty Ratty
Bratty Ratty
08/12/2007 1:04 PM  
Wow, this is great information. I'm so glad Bailey can continue to do agility.

~~Shannon, Mario and Pepper's mom!~~

michelle


Firehouse Big Dog
Firehouse Big Dog
08/12/2007 1:25 PM  

I asm glad Bailety and you will still be able to perform.


michelle, mom to Sydney (JRT), Sonic (Rattie), Buddy(Jack-Rat) and Proud mom to Army son, Jordan

http://www.dogster.com/dogs/893222 Sydney
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/893220 Sonic
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/901405 Buddy



anacodia


Ratterific
Ratterific
08/12/2007 4:49 PM  
Nora, this is really very interesting. I've mentioned before that my Copper and I are training in competitive agility and will be entering our first trial in September (I can't wait!). This information forced me to evaluate and take notice of her structure, especially her angulation and see how it may affect her performance. I've never noticed a dog being 'post-legged' before. I may email a friend I have who does conformation and see what she says about the structure of mine.
Thanks for sharing this!
rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
08/12/2007 5:43 PM  
Anacodia -- where will you be competing in September? I'll be in Harriman the second weekend of September and at Franklin (agricultural center) the last weekend in September. Any chance you'll be at one of these trials? Bailey are I are set to enter our first trial in January.
anacodia


Ratterific
Ratterific
08/12/2007 8:15 PM  

I'll be competing in Oklahoma, if I recall you are in TN? Maybe one of these days we'll run into each other in Arkansas. What organization will you be competing in? We are starting out in AKC, because apparently I live in the land of AKC. We hope to also do a NADAC trial in October, because everyone talks about how much fun (and more laid back) NADAC is!

Erika and Copper

rattytatty


Newbie
Newbie
08/13/2007 9:22 AM  
Yes, I'm in Tennessee and the two September trials are in Tennessee (although we're not competing in them... we're going to hang out with friends and watch the activities. Plus.. the vendors are awesome!). We're starting out in AKC too, although we will compete in some USDAA trials. There are not that many NADAC trials here. I enjoy the USDAA trials because they allow mixed breeds, and the AKC doesn't (although this is something the AKC is considering).

Good luck to you! You're on the ActionRats list I'm on and I'ver read many of your emails... so I'll be keeping up with your progress!

And... by the way... Copper is a handsome fellow !!
PamWh


Rattitude Problem
Rattitude Problem
08/13/2007 10:09 AM  
Nora, is Bob post-legged? He keeps hurting his back legs when he jumps up and down off the bed or couch.

PamWh
aka Bob's Mom

If your rattie ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!
Susan


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
08/13/2007 1:13 PM  
This is also one of the differences between Pet Quality puppies and Show Quality puppies. Adgility dogs are preferably "show quality" because show dog may not have any stuctural defects! In breeds with colors/markings that are not allowed Pet quality pups may just be pups with poor markings. Ratties allow almost any color or markings so structure is the key to pet. Please note that pet quality means just that! A family pet without the stresses that adgility, police work, rescue work, breeding, or show require.

ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys!
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