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Susan

Terrier Terror

05/14/2007 1:28 AM
I am curious again and it probably is a weird question but.... Can a litter have both type A's and type B's in it? If so how does that work? What are the genetics of the two leg types? How can the types be different breeds if they are in the same litter? How long has it been that the two types have been separated? I guess I am just addicted to puppies and I have been at too many different sites with pups for sale, but I have noticed that there are some people mixing types. And I am curious, as I always am, as to how that works for breeding and bloodlines, and how the pups can be registered. It just seems a little strange to me and I would like to know these things as I have not found any answers any where yet. Maybe I can research tail types too.

ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys!

Mitzy's Mom

PAWesome

05/14/2007 1:19 PM
Ok, this is just my opinion but - I don't think the two should be mixed. It doesn't cause any medical problems or anything like that but each type is special and unique in it's own way...if they are mixed too much then we'll just have a lot of medium length leg ratties! Or just long legged as I think there are a lot more of them. And there can be both types in a litter if you breed one type A to a type B (obviously) OR if a grandparent was a different type, etc. I don't know how long they have been separated, it probably came about the same way that in some parts of the country they bred more whippet/IG into rat terriers for a leaner dog....some breeders started breeding corgis into the mix to produce the type B. I've also heard that maybe dachshounds were bred into ratties but I've seen too many Type B's - I don't think there is dachshund in them. The breeder I got Mayfly from also had a couple of pet corgis and the corgi head is exactly like Mayfly's, Abby's, etc. all the type B's I've seen. The Pembroke Corgi also has no tail and there are a lot of type B's with natural bob tails....like Mayfly. Now, of course the rat terrier club that is trying to get AKC approval does not recognize the type B's as rat terriers...so I don't know why anyone would want to breed the two types together. Mayfly is UKC registered....and there is also a Teddy Roosevelt Terrier Club which is their new name as they become separated from the other rat terriers....

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona

Mitzy's Mom

PAWesome

05/14/2007 1:35 PM

This is the club that is trying to get Rat Terriers recognized by the AKC: http://www.ratterrierclub.com/standard/index.html

Teddy's are disqualified:

DISQUALIFICATIONS

Short-legs, and/or benched legs or fiddle front. Absence of coat, wirehaired, broken-coated, or long coated or longhaired individuals. Absence of minimal patch of white the size of a quarter (approximately 1 square inch) displayed on body, excluding the areas of the head and feet. Single or solid colors; Solid white, or near solid white (excessively white patterned) dogs, not displaying mottled skin and dark nose leather. Albinism, or brindle or merle colorations. Dogs not measuring 10" inches of height at 12 months of age, or those measuring over 19" inches. Wry, undershot or overshot bites. Blue, China or Walleyes, disqualified. Monorchids or Cryptorchids. Cropped ears.

This would include all type B's (short legs) and I've also seen type B's with the benched legs (Mitzy has them but also some registered dogs; Mayfly's breeder has one as a stud). To me, this indicates that maybe bench-legged fiests were in the family tree, too.

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids

Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org
Pics of my current fosters:
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow
http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona

Mitzy's Mom

PAWesome

05/14/2007 1:49 PM
I was just reading the RTCA standards for showing in AKC...they don't allow a dog with the tail curled or up over the back....Mitzy's does that and I could swear I've seen others on here that are definitely purebred who's tails do that. I'm really not sure this AKC think is a good idea but it won't include the Teddy's anyway... Can you tell this is one of my favorite topics?! LOL

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona

Darla

Ratterific

05/14/2007 5:04 PM
Posted By Susan on 05/14/2007 1:28 AM I am curious again and it probably is a weird question but.... Can a litter have both type A's and type B's in it? If so how does that work? What are the genetics of the two leg types? How can the types be different breeds if they are in the same litter? How long has it been that the two types have been separated? I guess I am just addicted to puppies and I have been at too many different sites with pups for sale, but I have noticed that there are some people mixing types. And I am curious, as I always am, as to how that works for breeding and bloodlines, and how the pups can be registered. It just seems a little strange to me and I would like to know these things as I have not found any answers any where yet. Maybe I can research tail types too. Hi Susan, Since we don't breed TRT's I am not certain how it all works but, I believe it might be like the AHT's. The AHT's and maybe the TRT's can still breed to the Rat Terriers being that their gene pool is very low. I know that sometime back before the TRT separated it was common practice to breed them together and yep! I think a throwback can still pop up from time to time. I know that when an AHT is bred to a Rat Terrier that the whole litter must be registered as AHT's and this maybe how it works with TRT's too. I would assume that if a TRT pops up, that the puppy could be single registered as a TRT. I think that UKC accepted the Teddy's in the late 1990's

(link) Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today.

Susan

Terrier Terror

05/16/2007 12:48 AM
Thanks for the info. It just seems weird that some breeders are mixing them. Now as to the tail thing I don't think that AKC can be so picky especially as most shown dogs are docked. If they had the wrong tail but were good in everything else, I can just see some body docking to show it. As most Ratties that I have seen carry their docked tails very high, I suspect that there are alot of ratties out there with what AKC would discribe as unacceptable tails. Sometimes I think that just have UKC registered Ratties and showing that way with no professional handlers allowed would be a much better solution to the problem.

ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys!

Susan

Terrier Terror

05/16/2007 12:52 AM
Also if a TRT showed up in a litter of RT would that mean that the whole litter would be registered as TRT? Because that is kind of how the AHT thing is working, although I have not heard of any other Hairless being found in a Rattie litter just out of the blue. But I suppose it could happen.

ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys!

Darla

Ratterific

05/16/2007 8:05 AM
Good Morning Susan, From the UKC Standard: *"Tail* The tail is set on at the end of the croup. A docked or natural bob tail is preferred, but a natural tail is not a fault. Docking should be between the second and third joint of the tail. he natural tail is thick at the base and tapers toward the tip. When the dog is alert, the tail is carried in an upward curve. When relaxed, the tail may be carried straight out behind the dog. Faults: Bent tail; ring tail. " I would venture to say that this is why we might see a lot of NB (Natural Bobtails) if the law make us leave tails on. I agree, I see many carrying their tails almost bent over, this is what some call a party tail and this is what I think would be a fault if it was not docked. If you had a TRT pop up, I would assume that you'd only single register that one dog. The reason why IMO that it would be different is because ..if you breed an AHT to a Rat Terrier then they all carry the hairless gene. If you breed one of these coated carriers (CC) to another Rattie they too would all have hair but still have to be registered as AHT's or if you bred another CC to them then it is a shot in the dark that you might get a hairless. This was ARTA that decided on this because and I agree with them is.. they wanted to clean up the Rat Terrier lines so to speak. That is why I think it might be the same for TRT. They wanted to start separating the gene pools. It won't happen overnight but in time it will. Also, if I had an TRT pop up..I'd do some deep pedigree research and see if I could figure out where it came from.

(link) Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today.

Mitzy's Mom

PAWesome

05/16/2007 8:15 AM
Posted By Darla on 05/16/2007 8:05 AM Good Morning Susan, From the UKC Standard: *"Tail* The tail is set on at the end of the croup. A docked or natural bob tail is preferred, but a natural tail is not a fault. Docking should be between the second and third joint of the tail. he natural tail is thick at the base and tapers toward the tip. When the dog is alert, the tail is carried in an upward curve. When relaxed, the tail may be carried straight out behind the dog. Faults: Bent tail; ring tail. " I would venture to say that this is why we might see a lot of NB (Natural Bobtails) if the law make us leave tails on. I agree, I see many carrying their tails almost bent over, this is what some call a party tail and this is what I think would be a fault if it was not docked. If you had a TRT pop up, I would assume that you'd only single register that one dog. The reason why IMO that it would be different is because ..if you breed an AHT to a Rat Terrier then they all carry the hairless gene. If you breed one of these coated carriers (CC) to another Rattie they too would all have hair but still have to be registered as AHT's or if you bred another CC to them then it is a shot in the dark that you might get a hairless. This was ARTA that decided on this because and I agree with them is.. they wanted to clean up the Rat Terrier lines so to speak. That is why I think it might be the same for TRT. They wanted to start separating the gene pools. It won't happen overnight but in time it will. Also, if I had an TRT pop up..I'd do some deep pedigree research and see if I could figure out where it came from. Wouldn't it be risky to breed especially for NBT? Or would it only be uneducated breeders that might breed 2 NBT's together that would risk medical problems?

Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona

Darla

Ratterific

05/16/2007 9:10 AM
Good Morning Mary Beth, I totally agree with you and this is NOT something we will do but I also think that there will be some unethical breeders that will say that they had NB when they in actuality have docked them. We would never breed NB to a NB (knowingly) but I know there are some that do thinking that there is no issue. IMO it is just too big of a risk. I have heard too many horror stories We have left tails on so I am not beyond doing it..it's just our preference for a docked tail.

(link) Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today.

smoore

Ratastic

05/16/2007 9:21 AM
I have seen a type A pup come from two type B ratties. Just depends on there background. I have also seen a 20 pound rattie come out of 2 toy ratties. Sometimes what you get is kind of a surprise. Thats why it is very important to know the full background of the dogs. Thats why I like NRTA's family tree registration papers that you can get.

-Sara

Susan

Terrier Terror

05/16/2007 1:34 PM
The family tree papers are nice, but some people do lie. That is the problem at the best of times. Most breeders are ethical but the ones that are not are messing everything up for everybody else. It is a frustration of mine. The selling the papers thing goes along with that. If you don't want the papers on a dog fine! But is the breeder going to use them on another dog that is sold? maybe I am feeling paranoid but that sort of thing has been going on for so long that it may be impossible to stamp out. don't mean to bitch so much but it is another of my frustratiions.

ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys!

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