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Rat-Terrier.com
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Anabella

Ratterific

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| 05/08/2007 2:39 PM |
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| I want to know how everyone feels about line breeding? |
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Foster Mom RatterrierresQ.com |
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DaisysMom

 Moderator

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| 05/08/2007 3:08 PM |
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| What exactly is it? |
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Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom
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rattytatty

Newbie

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| 05/08/2007 3:17 PM |
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| Line breeding is definitely preferred over inbreeding, but is still just a "weaker" form of inbreeding. I don't think any breeder should attempt it unless they have a clear handle on the complexities of the breed's basic genetics. Tracey...line breeding is when you mate animals who are closely related to the same ancestor, but they are little (if at all) related to each other. It's a common practice among breeders. |
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DaisysMom

 Moderator

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| 05/08/2007 3:25 PM |
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OH, I see (I think)
Anabella: There are some breeders here that might have more insight for you. Sorry, I don't know all that much about it as I have never nor do I ever intend to be a breeder. |
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Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom
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smoore

 Ratastic

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| 05/08/2007 3:35 PM |
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| There is a great article about it on www.NRTA.com |
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-Sara
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Anabella

Ratterific

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| 05/08/2007 4:41 PM |
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Thanks for the info. My puppy came from a breeder who intention was to keep and breed her. Well I fell so much in love with her and she with me, the breeder let my husband purchase her. The breeder's plan was to breed her with her Grandfather. So because I am still going to breed her he is thinking that I can still breed her to the Grandfather. The breeder has the Grandfather. I have been doing some reading but I am not to confterble with that decision yet. So would you buy a dog that was line breed? |
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Foster Mom RatterrierresQ.com |
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Apollo's Mommy

 Feisty

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| 05/08/2007 5:03 PM |
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| Personally I would not... but that's just me! |
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"You can't fix stupid." - Ron White
~ Jolene ~ Mommy to Apollo, Emma, & Indie
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Anabella

Ratterific

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| 05/08/2007 5:05 PM |
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| Thats kind of the direction I am going. Now I have to break this man's heart. Well wont be the first time. Thanks. |
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Foster Mom RatterrierresQ.com |
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Susan

Terrier Terror

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| 05/08/2007 6:59 PM |
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| You probably have bought a line bred dog without knowing it. It is very common with every breed. It is done to keep certain charactoristics in a line. For example: Breeding grand daughter to grandsire, to keep really good gait (legs) and excellant feet in a line. If there are not the recessives that could be a detriment it is a very common breeding. Almost all breeders of every domestic animal line breed. It shows bad ressesives quickly and you get a know quality with the results. Inbreeding is not as common, you get ressesives much more quickly and you must cull very hard. Livestock producers will inbreed to get rid of bad ressesives. Neither is a bad thing it is just a way of getting a know qualitly with your breeding. I would not inbreed, but have fequently line bred dogs. |
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ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys! |
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Susan

Terrier Terror

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| 05/08/2007 7:03 PM |
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| Oh, as another thought, Outbreeding, breeding unrelated dogs for as far back as can be traced is not often done, except as an additiong to a line. then linebreeding is used to fix the charactoristics that are being bred for. |
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ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys! |
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/08/2007 7:54 PM |
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Hi Anabella,
My husband has researched this topic a lot. Inbreedind and lindbreeding are forms of breeding that we are introducing into our program.
If you see my avatar.. this is the dog that we are doing what is called clockwise breeding around.
What he has is breed type. His head, his broad chest and his depth of chest, to name a few all fit what our minds eye of breed type are. They are the characteristics that we want to keep producing in our lines and the best way to do this is by inbreeding and linebreeding.
It is NOT a new practice. Breeders of horses and many other canine breeds have been doing it for eons. Dogs can breed on their own without our help..it is mans intervention that create or try to help create a better example of a breed.
Many breeders are very against it and many are for it. To each his own.
Also, when one inbreeds and linebreeds they tend to KNOW whats in the lines. When one ONLY outcrosses all the time .. more likely than not..they don't know what they are up against. A breeder that inbreeds and linebreeds also has to know when to outcross too.
If you would like more info on this topic my hubby might be able to direct you in your endeavors. His e-mail addy is info@kndkennels.com
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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Mitzy's Mom

 PAWesome

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| 05/09/2007 7:43 AM |
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Many breeds of horses are "linebred", the first trainer/breeder I worked for did this with Arabians but NEVER inbreeding....although inbreeding can magnify the sought-after qualities in a line of dogs it can also magnify the bad qualities...and these bad traits can often be physical/medical problems. Totally unfair to the animals.
Now, i know horses, I'm not a dog breeder...but I would never knowingly buy a pup that was inbred or produced from a daughter/grandfather mating.
This sounds like trying to produce clones when the beauty (and hardiness) of rat terriers is that they are all so different. JMO |
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
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Anabella

Ratterific

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| 05/09/2007 10:03 AM |
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| Ana has not been line bread dog. I dont think I would buy one wth out doing all my home work. That is what I am doing now. Seems that everyone is 50 50 on the subject. I am going to have to buy some books on the subject. I do have a while before she is ready. I am giving myself plenty of time to learn all that I can. |
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Foster Mom RatterrierresQ.com |
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/09/2007 12:30 PM |
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Well, It's just the age old debate on yet another board.
Like I said...to each his own. But don't forget that this is not new and some "SOME" issues can be bred away from..if you know their there.
If you think inbreeding and linebreeding are taking a chance.. everytime a litter is breed one takes a chance.
No..it's not cloning ...it's breeding dogs that someone should be able to tell what they are (breed type) and not to mistake them for ..miniature dobermans, min pins, chihuahua, min pins..to name few. If one is not trying to breed to breed type why breed pure breds.. breed designer dogs...JMO |
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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Mitzy's Mom

 PAWesome

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| 05/09/2007 2:08 PM |
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Posted By Darla on 05/09/2007 12:30 PM Well, It's just the age old debate on yet another board. Like I said...to each his own. But don't forget that this is not new and some "SOME" issues can be bred away from..if you know their there. If you think inbreeding and linebreeding are taking a chance.. everytime a litter is breed one takes a chance. No..it's not cloning ... it's breeding dogs that someone should be able to tell what they are (breed type) and not to mistake them for ..miniature dobermans, min pins, chihuahua, min pins..to name few. If one is not trying to breed to breed type why breed pure breds.. breed designer dogs...JMO  First of all, I'm not a dog breeder and certainly don't claim to have all the answers on this. The Arabian breeder I worked for would be breed very distant relatives (maybe 2nd cousins as an example but not granddaugther to grandfather) is that line breeding? If so, there may be a "safe" way to do that. But inbreeding - no way. Yes, every time a litter is produced it is taking a chance - but inbreeding drastically increases the chances of bad traits.
Personally, I love the way our ratties can be mistaken for miniature dobermans, chihuahuas, jack russells, etc.! Rat Terriers are more of a type of dog than a breed....since the beginnings of this "breed" people in different parts of the country have bred into the dogs different other breeds, seeking the qualities they needed in that area. Example: farmers breeding more "snap" breeds like whippet or IG into their ratties so they would be more effective in chasing rabbits!
Designer dogs are when (usually) a backyard breeder just starts breeding 2 breeds together on purpose to make a dog that will sell because it's special (usually for it's looks) simply to make money. Ratties were bred from other breeds for definite purposes (squirrel hunting, rabbits, rats). That's the beauty of them. I, myself, have Teddy Roosevelt Rat Terriers (well 1 purebred - I guess the others are "designer strays" LOL). They have the stocky build and short legs because of Corgi blood introduced generations ago - before "designer dogs" were popular.
I do understand that the AKC requires more of a standard (similar to the clone look) in order to accept a breed. I do not necessarily believe that AKC registration is a good thing for Rat Terriers though.
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
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rattytatty

Newbie

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| 05/09/2007 2:58 PM |
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My concern is that the RT will follow in the footsteps of the Cocker Spaniel and the Golden Retriever. Many people use their rat terriers for their intended purpose (hunting), and I fear that breeding for show only (and that happens with many breeders when AKC recognition happens) will vastly diminish the natural ability of the dogs. I mention the 2 breeds above because both were once bred be very effective hunters and now you would be hard pressed to find a member of that breed that will hunt anything except the food bowl!
I think it is critical to have a National Association that is dedicated to preservation of the standard and that standard must include the ability to perform the work that the dog was intentionally bred to do. The dogs are VERY capable of being outstanding pets and outstanding workers......
Now that having been said, it's still a two-sided issue. On the one hand there are disadvantages to the AKC, BUT there are at least a couple advantages. The AKC is a bit stricter in regulating registration papers, which makes things less convenient for "backyard breeders" and puppymills. Then of course there's the fact that many people who are interested in showing their rats would like to be able to participate in larger multi-breed shows. The political issues that I've seen the AKC promote are fighting attempts to ban or regulate ear cropping and tail docking. The UKC doesn't disagree with either policy. (By the way, the world agility trials will be held in Norway this year, and they will allow NO dogs to compete who have docked tails or cropped ears, which eliminated several breeds of dogs from even going to the tryouts in Minnesota this past weekend... I mean... why bother, right?)
Yep this is a debate that will rage on I'm sure.......I just want the dogs to maintain the capabilities that made them the dogs that they are. If a breed was developed to be a pet...excellent! continue that development. If they were bred to be a working or hunting dog....then they should still be excellent at that. Responsible breeding by responsible breeders is what's required. I just hope that whatever national registry acknowledes the Rat Terrier that they are supportive of maintaining the qualities that have made it what it is.
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Mitzy's Mom

 PAWesome

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| 05/09/2007 3:25 PM |
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I agree about losing the working ability, also Golden Retreivers (known for their good natures) are starting to show bad personality traits (I learned this when we had one and I was searching for answers on her behavior) because they became so popular they were being bred indiscriminately.
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/09/2007 4:18 PM |
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Here is a link about inbreeding and linebreeding but..yes'em you are correct about linebreeding and that is more what we have intended. Inbreeding is a more direct approach. mother, son or father daughter. Linebreeding is a bit more distant..Aunt to nephew , grandsire or granddam to their descendants etc. http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html
I have to disagree with the fact that we still need to be adding more breeds to our Rat Terriers. We did need to at one time but not any more IMO. I personally get very appalled when someone refers to my Rat Terriers as Chihuahua. We work very hard to make a very well made Rat Terrier that looks so. And YES it offends me. Ours look NOTHING like a Chi.
You and I agree about designer dogs... if someone wants a designer dog I wish they'd save one by going to the pound and getting all the designer dogs out of there.
The Rat Terrier is a very efficient hunting dog still to this day just as they are. They are a breed of their own and in their own right.
In the past they even added spitz for hunting bear... I hope that is not still happening...the truth is we don't evevn know what all was added to our beloved breed. They added whatever was needed where they lived..different needs for different breeds..and if they needed it they added it. But it just sin't needed anymore.
You and I also agree about AKC. I am not sure AKC is always a good thing. The jury is still out for me. I have heard too many horror stories about other breeds that have gone AKC. |
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/09/2007 4:37 PM |
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WOW..very interesting.
We breed for strong erect ears, something we are proud of so I hope you don't mind me mentioning it, so no worries about the ear cropping. The tail thing..a whole new issue. Not sure how we will deal with that if it ever comes up..we shall see.
I would love to see more registries be more strict. We had a breeder sell us a sick dog. It was dead in 4 days and when we told her about it..she wanted the papers back. Why? I would have to assume that she would use it for another dog that she had gotten who knows where. She didn't get them back.
I agree that all breeds should be able to do what they were breed for. I mean..my dad hunted with fiest (which is what a Rat Terrier is) when he was a kid and I know many of my friends that breed Rats and still take them out to keep them keen. But...isn't a Rat Terrier suppose to be able to do it all? They should still be able to hunt but still be the family pet and friend too..IMO |
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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Susan

Terrier Terror

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| 05/10/2007 1:27 AM |
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Another thing is that AKC has never been able to stop puppymills. Many puppymill dogs are AKC registered. The registries don't prevent abuses happening, If an abuse is brought to the notice of the registry it can blacklist a person from registering any more dogs with it. But there are ways around anything and the kind of people that have puppymills always seem to find them. Ratties should be Ratties not something else. You breed the best you can with the best dogs you can and the best information you can find. It sometimes does not work like you thought it would and sometimes works better. You never know, it is always a crap shoot no matter how much work you put into it. |
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ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys! |
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Mitzy's Mom

 PAWesome

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| 05/10/2007 7:15 AM |
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Posted By Darla on 05/09/2007 4:18 PM Here is a link about inbreeding and linebreeding but..yes'em you are correct about linebreeding and that is more what we have intended. Inbreeding is a more direct approach. mother, son or father daughter. Linebreeding is a bit more distant..Aunt to nephew , grandsire or granddam to their descendants etc. http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html I have to disagree with the fact that we still need to be adding more breeds to our Rat Terriers. We did need to at one time but not any more IMO. I personally get very appalled when someone refers to my Rat Terriers as Chihuahua. We work very hard to make a very well made Rat Terrier that looks so. And YES it offends me. Ours look NOTHING like a Chi. You and I agree about designer dogs... if someone wants a designer dog I wish they'd save one by going to the pound and getting all the designer dogs out of there. The Rat Terrier is a very efficient hunting dog still to this day just as they are. They are a breed of their own and in their own right. In the past they even added spitz for hunting bear... I hope that is not still happening...the truth is we don't evevn know what all was added to our beloved breed. They added whatever was needed where they lived..different needs for different breeds..and if they needed it they added it. But it just sin't needed anymore. You and I also agree about AKC. I am not sure AKC is always a good thing. The jury is still out for me. I have heard too many horror stories about other breeds that have gone AKC. I do not think we still need to be adding more breeds to the rat terrier family tree; if I gave that impression then I didn't make myself clear.
Actually, we may not be so far apart in some opinions - I do believe a rat terrier should have certain very distinct characteristics, an example being the head/face. And you can see in the banner we have up now that most of those dogs do have the rattie face even though some may be short legged, others long legged some may be minis and others standards. That banner represents some of the many varieties of rat terriers.
And no, certainly your ratties don't look like chi's - that is probably coming from people who are totally ignorant. I get that about my Mayfly, too, who is a purebred Teddy and looks nothing like a chi. (I also love the erect ears and actually most teddy's that I've seen do have those.)
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
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Mitzy's Mom

 PAWesome

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| 05/10/2007 7:27 AM |
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Well, it won't let me edit my post but I wanted to clarify that the little dog in my avatar looks like a chi because he is a rattie-chi cross. (at least we think he is...we got him from a shelter.) My Mayfly (my one purebred, registered rattie) is the sweetest, most affectionate, most playful, eager to please dog I've ever owned. I love the way she trots out when she's excited and fights with her butt (and actually my ratchis do this too which is one reason I've guessed they are part rattie), her intelligent face, the way her chest is made and her BIG ears. So there are definite things that make ratties = ratties. |
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/10/2007 7:59 AM |
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I was going to ask you about your baby in your avatar. It looks like he is missing an eye, is he? He looks like a doll baby.
As a rat terrier breeder trying to breed the best we can and like Susan said it doesn't always workout like we plan, but when it comes down to it they are all our baies. Pure bred or not, shelter rescues ...the one thing we all have in common is...we love our dogs! And we are very passionate about our favorite breed. |
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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Mitzy's Mom

 PAWesome

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| 05/10/2007 8:30 AM |
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Yep, we are all passionate about rat terriers and we appreciate the work that good breeders, like yourself, Susan and Sara, do! That keeps our breed around and that's what we all want. Skipper is missing an eye, he lost in a fight with another dog at his home and was then surrendered to the humane society. He's a sweetheart, is large and rangy for a chi, and has many rattie traits...we thought we were going to pick up a chi when we went to get him because he looked tiny in the pictures. When they brought him out my husband blurted out "he has rat in him!" He really has the dome skull of a chi, though, so it's hard to see rattie in him in most pictures. |
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Mary Beth, mom to the Lollipop Kids
Georgia Foster Mom, www.newrattitude.org Pics of my current fosters: http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/caradoc http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/willow http://imageevent.com/newrattitude/fiona
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rattytatty

Newbie

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| 05/10/2007 12:40 PM |
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I appreciate the fact that we're able to discuss this issue openly and agree to disagree on some of the points. I've known breeders to become really defensive about the issue of inbreeding and line breeding. Some very good points have been made here.. some differences of opinions are obvious too. We all know there are a lot of bad breeders out there who see dogs as nothing more than an industrial product to make quick money. I just wish all breeders would breed for a total dog, not just one or two characteristics. |
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Susan

Terrier Terror

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| 05/11/2007 12:10 AM |
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Most good breeders do try for the total dog, but they are very aware of all the parts of that dog. A female with excellant feet but maybe her ears aren't all they could be is bred to a male with excellant ears and good feet. You are hoping for pups with excellant everything, but maybe one is a pet, and two can be breeders they look very good, and one is a perfect dog and will be used for show and breeding. You never know, the objective is all of the pups are perfect, but that just does not happen every time, sometimes, but not every time. Genetics is not an "easy" subject and we only know so much. Some times that perfect dog happens in a litter that is pets, bred for pets. But that dog probably won't produce what you want even when bred to a perfect female. This is a problem with outbreeding. It is so important to know your pedigree for type and quality. How many good dogs ( show champions ) has this dog produced? How many not bred pets? Does this dog have recessives in the background that will come out with this female? It is gambling but a more controled form of gambling than at the casino. It is just as addictive too. |
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ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING Mom of eight, only three left at home! Pack leader to ten ratties: Maggie, Mysty, Berry, Simon, Ceecee and five puppies, Star,Sari, Bluebelle, Double stuf,and Snortie. As well as Ginger the Border Collie and a herd of turkeys! |
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Anabella

Ratterific

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| 05/21/2007 4:32 PM |
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Darla,
Thanks so much for the information!!! I think I will send your husband an e-mail so he can give me some information. The Grand sire of my Ana is really a nice looking dog. I Will send you pictures of both Ana and JB. I do think they would have GREAT puppies. Both bodies are slim and very muscular, large pointed ears, long muzzle's, very long legs ect...ect... I guess I love my dog just a little bit. LOL
The last of my questions is, what about size?? What is the limit to the male being bigger then the bitch. JB is quite a bit bigger. Although Ana is six months so she might have to finish filling out. Yes, I know she is only six months now and I am inquiring about all these breeding questions. When it is her time I do not want any doubts in my head about breeding her. I want to be completely comfortable with my decision.
My email kellymax55@hotmail.com
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Foster Mom RatterrierresQ.com |
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/22/2007 7:36 AM |
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Hi Annabella,
Most say no more than 4 lbs.
You are doing right in making your planes and checking your options. It gives you time for changes should you need them.
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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Anabella

Ratterific

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| 05/22/2007 5:26 PM |
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Dara,
I was looking at your web site today and is Rose one of your's??
She has the exact marking's and color as my Ana!!! |
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Foster Mom RatterrierresQ.com |
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Darla

 Ratterific

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| 05/22/2007 6:32 PM |
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Hi Anabella,
Yes'em, Rose is out of our breeding. Anytime you see a KnD's in front of a dogs name, that dog is of our breeding. Most breeders are doing it this way in some form or another. That way a dogs history can be found or tracked more easily.
Rose is a clear tan. She has no sabling. The color experts (of which I am NOT) say that her black is recessive. She is out of a black and tan sire and dam. They say she is rare as she too should have been a black and tan.
We are proud of her. She is smart as a whip and shows off in a hearbeat. She loves to please us. She is a kissy baby.
Thanks for asking about her. |
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(link)
 Breeders Of Champion and Grand Champion Rat Terriers and American Hairless Terriers Striving For Health, Temperament and Conformation In All Our Terriers KnD Breeding For A Better Tomorrow- Today. |
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