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Subject: I'm Learning A New Way !
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rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
09/16/2008 8:55 AM  

You CAN teach old dogs new tricks!

Coming from almost 12 years of obedience training, the term operant conditioning was foreign to me two years ago.  Free shaping canine behaviors coupled with operant training methods....is ALL about motivation and teaching a dog to offer behaviors.

The old "tried and true" methods of training with which I am all too familiar are without a doubt successful in creating a well behaved well trained dog.  However,  the results are a dog that will wait to be told what to do.  The dog has been taught that making mistakes is not acceptable, therefore it will only perform as it's told to do.  In contrast...an operantly conditioned dog isn't afraid of making mistakes because there aren't consequences.  There are only opportunities to learn what works and what doesn't to earn a reward.   Operantly conditioning a dog builds confidence, it builds drive and it builds relationships.  I'm finding that out, and I'm also figuring out that this is part of why Bailey entered my life unexpectedly and unplanned when he did...because he had some very important things to teach me.

 If more people made the effort to learn from their dogs rather than just expecting their dogs to learn from them we'd have some pretty amazing revelations happening around us.


~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
Pam&Maggie


Ratastic
Ratastic
09/16/2008 10:46 AM  
Can you elaborate on this method a little more Nora? And maybe give some examples? I'd love to learn more too!

The Rat Patrol
Pam, Maggie, Kidd Roo, Nitro and Rudy
Ratbones Rescue Volunteer
Ratbonerescues.com
alice4512


Firehouse Big Dog
Firehouse Big Dog
09/16/2008 4:41 PM  

I am pretty sure Nora is referring to "clicker" training.....am I right Nora?

I clicker train and love it. The days I don't feel like training something we do shaping exercises that work wonders on a dog's confidence. It's so funny too how clicker training really lets you see a dog's thought process. For example, I figured for fun I would teach Alice to "give paw". So after a while she is getting that I want her paw on my hand, well now that she knows that she will sit up (literally) and place both her paws on my hand. She isn't understanding she needs to sit for it, it's just about getting her paw on my hand....so funny!!

Nora, I hope this is what you are talking about.


The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too

~Mom to my good boy Fred and my crazy girl Alice~
Proud applications coordinator for Ratbone Rescue
ivy


Bratty Ratty
Bratty Ratty
09/16/2008 4:46 PM  
Any good books on clicker training you would recommend?
alice4512


Firehouse Big Dog
Firehouse Big Dog
09/16/2008 4:54 PM  

Karen Pryor is probably one of the better ones out there....not sure of books but she has some great web-sites!!


The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too

~Mom to my good boy Fred and my crazy girl Alice~
Proud applications coordinator for Ratbone Rescue
Philo


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
09/16/2008 4:57 PM  
I think clickers can be used in both types of training. I believe what Nora is doing is allowing Bailey to be himself and when he does something new and interesting she can reinforce this behavior instead of forcing him in to a rigid set of planned "tricks".

Cameo taught me to teach her something. She learned to "kiss" as something that just came out of "sit" and "lay". She would sometimes stretch or stand up a little to get near my face. This may go contrary to some teachings, but I want both of us to be comfortable near each other so I don't discourage her. Anyway, I simply started saying "Cameo Kiss" and she started responding to the "request". I didn't set out to have her do this, but she is so darned sweet that it came naturally. She will even do it without the threat of a treat.

Rattie Daddy to Cameo, Nala Belle, Cutter & Rattagan
(aka Philo)

"Beauty such as this is a gift, and I'm often in awe of this world we've been given." Mrs Bonnie
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
09/16/2008 10:20 PM  
Clicker training is only one aspect of it.... you click the STEPS towards a behavior and eventually the ultimate behavior you are seeking will unfold. It takes longer, but the dog is so much more motivated and appears to WANT to give you a behavior so you will click and treat. In the beginning... it may not even be a behavior you are seeking. But the fact that he wants to give you SOMEthing and is excited about it... is what it's about. You take a behavior the dogs offers and you build on that.. step by step... click by click... treat by treat.

The book "When Pigs Fly" (How to train the impossible dog) defines the concept (and steps) in detail. It's a great book and the methods do work.

Bailey is hardly "the impossible dog" as he is very intelligent and eager to learn and please. But he is also the most sensitve dog I've ever owned or worked with and can take little correction. So in order for me to meet the goals I have set for Bailey and me.... I had to learn a different method of training in order to keep Bailey motivated and willing to learn without shutting him down.

I hope some of this make sense! I'm still a newbie with this methodology! LOL

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
ivy


Bratty Ratty
Bratty Ratty
09/16/2008 10:34 PM  
Thanks for the recommendation! Ivy seems to be of the sensitive kind and I don't ever want her to shut down on me!
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
09/17/2008 7:46 AM  
Karen Pryor is the "founder" of clicker training for dogs & cats. Here's a link which might help you. Clicker training can be effective with any TYPE of training. The specific training I'm doing is called "free shaping"... and the clicker is used to reinforce (mark) behaviors.

http://www.dog-obedience-training-review.com/clicker-dog-training.html

On another note... I'm finding that although the rat terrier breed has all the typical terrier characteristics... they are much more sensitive than most other terriers I've ever worked with... much less "hard core" so to speak. So a positive (operant) type of training works much better with them than negative corrections.

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
Cocoabean


Rat Royalty
Rat Royalty
09/18/2008 12:23 PM  
That's really cool, Nora. I trained Heidi (lab/shepherd mix) using traditional methods of correction-based training, and she seemed to respond very well to it. (I have a great dog now, perhaps in spite of the training, I don't know.) Not harsh corrections, mind you, just reprimands mostly, and physically showing the dog what we wanted (like pushing her but down into a sit). We did do leash pops because that was how we were taught some 13 years ago to leash train.

When I adopted Henry, he didn't respond well at all to correction-based training, so I started reading, reading, reading and trying different things. Well, I can't believe how well he responds to reward-base training! He is so motivated to learn. Sometimes I'll get the training bits out and he starts doing all the tricks he knows. It's actually a lot of fun. It does take longer to get the final behavior, but once Henry gets it, he really gets it. I think this type of training is so important for Henry because he's kind of a scaredy-dog, and this seems to really have built up his confidence to where he now chooses not to be reactive.

Sara Jo
Mom to Henry
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