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Subject: Trying to establish who is boss !
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gardenut25


Rattie
Rattie
06/05/2008 8:04 PM  

Tazz is 11 weeks today,  this afternoon when we were playing frisby I could see her working into a tazz attack. She gets so excited that she looses it and starts bitting and snarling ,bearing her teeath! when I try to end the play time she gets worse, Bites my legs and feet. I held her for 45min on her back , Trying not to let her get ahold of me before she fianly tired out and submitted . what I need to know is, should I be making eye contact with her when Im doing this or not? ( The evil eye) also do I talk to her , it seems that every time I say anything  to her she gets more intense! I know that I have to win this battle . By the way How do I insert a pix in this?

DaisysMom


Moderator
<b>Moderator</b>
06/05/2008 8:10 PM  
You are outside when this happens, I take it? 11 weeks is pretty young, but you definitely need to establish yourself as pack leader. What happens if you just turn and walk away and ignore her.

For info on adding an avatar and creating a thread with pictures, check out the new member information link in red over on the left

Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom

gardenut25


Rattie
Rattie
06/05/2008 8:17 PM  

We are outside, and she follows me bitting and snarling all the time, quiet frenzyed!, I have tried to egnore her but she just keeps up attacking. Its seems it's half play but very agressive.

DaisysMom


Moderator
<b>Moderator</b>
06/05/2008 8:22 PM  
Little spitfire, is she? Make sure and look through the training forums for similar posts. And I'm sure when our training moderator, Nora, sees this she'll be sure and reply with some suggestions. She's very good! She always checks the training forum first, so she will see it. If not, I'll point it out to her

Some more information may help as well. How long have you had her, where did you get her, what type of routine is she on, have you tried any kind of training. Stuff like that will better enable Nora (and others) to give you more specific advice.

Tracey - Darlin' Daisy's Mom

gardenut25


Rattie
Rattie
06/05/2008 8:37 PM  

i bought her from a breeder, I met both her mom and dad, they were good dogs, frendly and well behaved. I have had two rattys, I still have 9 year old KD, My little Cody passed two years ago. Tazz was 71/2 weeks when we brought her home, she  is so smart, I didn't think that any dog could be smarter than my Kd but Tazz unbeleavable! I taught her to sit in one sesson the day we brought her home. she knows she needs to sit before we pick her up & when i feed her, She knows lay down, shes pritty good at stay, We are working on the leash but there again its a fight, she hates any control over her.

Noodles n Me


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
06/05/2008 8:49 PM  
Dear Nut,
Sorry I just had to say that!!! All I have to add to what Tracy said is WELCOME!! and of course Good Luck.

There is no joy greater than being owned by a Rattie!!
cat
anacodia


Ratterific
Ratterific
06/05/2008 9:41 PM  

Please google 'Alpha Roll' and read about it before you continue to do this. You can break a dog's spirit really easily doing this. My dog is almost 3 years old and still gets so wound up that she growls, barks, jumps up and bites my clothing. (This is when we are really playing hard or wrestling, or something high intensity. She does not exhibit this behavior at the drop of a hat.)I sternly will give her a command such as 'sit', so she can calm down and get refocused. It stops the biting behavior instantly. It's more a redirection than asserting your 'dominance'.

gardenut25


Rattie
Rattie
06/05/2008 9:53 PM  

I googled alpha roll, Guess i will have to find another way to go. I can tell that she will be agressive if I cant find a way to control her. she is strong minded and stuborn for such a little thing.

bluedog


Rat Royalty
Rat Royalty
06/05/2008 10:26 PM  
I would not talk to her when you are correcting her. Do not soothe her or give her any affection when she is in this state. There is a way to imitate a bite on their neck with your fingers that calms them down and establishes your pack leader role at the same time. As they relax you relax the tension. You have to be calm though, no anger or frustration or you will not be able to influence her to reach a calmer state.

Also when you see she is beginning to get worked up (stop the game that is creating the excitement at that point) - correct her with a firm "hey" with 2 fingers touching the chest or neck firmly (if needed - match the level of her intensity with your touch) or redirection (like sit) before she gets in a frenzy. it is so much easier to correct them in the early stages then when they are going crazy. I am not sure about eye contact. i think you can look at her, but I don't think you have to force eye contact to be a leader.

Use EVERY opportunity to establish leadership. Make her sit for food, when you prepare her food, put your fingers through it (scent). Make her wait to go through doors until you go first. Take her for walks (appropriate length for her age) to tire her out - not just exciting things like frisbee (you may already to this, just offering suggestions). Ignore her when you first come in the door until she is calm. Practice giving her toys and bones and taking them away again (make her drop it for you, not pry it from her mouth).

These are all just suggestions - ratties certainly can take over the world! Mine is a little gladiator...

Good luck - she is awfully cute! Her face is so symmetrical - even the dot on her head!

Christine
Mom to Michael & Charlotte
Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties)
lynnygal


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
06/05/2008 11:21 PM  
Gardenut....I must say first your little Tazz is adorable! What a cutie! I think the post above mine from Chrstine offered some great advice. I can't say as our Daisy exhibited real aggressive behavior like what you are experiencing, but we have certainly have had to put her in the down position (on her side, where we would hold her down) establishing alpha when she was younger...... I might also suggest a short play time.....so she doesn't have time to get too worked up where she goes into a tailspin. Good luck....just be patient....the first few months are the roughest with potty training and behavior issues.....it will all work out!

Lynn

--------------------- lynnygal ---------------------------------
gardenut25


Rattie
Rattie
06/05/2008 11:46 PM  

Thanks to everyone, This is the greatest sight I have found. I think with all of your advice and help I just might prevail ! I really don't want to break her sprit, thats what we love about her, she has a sence of humor , she loves to make us laugh, she will repeat things when we laugh at her. She can be soooo sweet then turn into a devil ( hence her name) . i sometimes wonder if maybe  Im giving her too much freedom. She is using the doggy door already to go out and do her business, We have 2 fenced acres so I don't always go out with her during the day, We live in the country so at night I always go with her. I always keep an eye on her but I do give her lots of freedome. I have noticed that she seems pumped sometimes when she comes in, then she challanges us or our other rat.

gwacie


Rat-A-Tat-Tat
Rat-A-Tat-Tat
06/06/2008 6:59 AM  
She's adorable. I'd put that little darling on a nothing in life is free program in a red hot minute. Make her earn EVERYTHING so she knows that all comes from the humans and she'd better respect the humans. Nothing in Life is Free NILF - let me know if you can't find info on it.

gwacie (Bethany)
My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/
Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org
braeli_bryson


Terrier Terror
Terrier Terror
06/06/2008 7:17 AM  
my $0.02... she is a puppy that wants to play and is learning about things by biting, etc... she is not being aggressive by any means in a bad way... just playful... at 7 mos my furbabies still bite to play, but they learned a soft bite... and when we say No Bite Kisses... their bites turn to licks...

you will establish your alpha role with time and dedication. you make sure to start and end play sessions. if she becomes bitey make sure to YELP and ignore her for a few minutes. just stand there and do not look, touch or anything... then without starting play again call her for kisses... also yes when you try to be alpha EYE CONTACT is VERY IMPORTANT... the one who looks away 1st is less dominant... my babies wont even dare stare me in the eyes unless they are being lovey... as far as holding the pups down... firmly, but gently pin one shoulder to the floor kind of holding the kneck too.... in a secs to min they should be come submissive... a squirm here or there... and firm NO or BAD helps so they undertsand that something is wrong... but this needs to be done immediately after the act of "acting up"... holding her down for 45 mins isnt doing you or her any good.

best advice... have PATIENCE!!!! this is a very smart breed... and no matter how strong willed... they learn and listen. good luck and keep us posted.

Nora... agree or disagree?

"No one knows YOU better than YOU!"

gianni_mahopac, ny
bryson: pearl tri color | braeli: chocolate tri color.
rattytatty


Training Moderator
Training Moderator
06/06/2008 7:28 AM  
Bryson -- I agree. Pinning an 11-week old pup down for 45 minutes is extreme IMO. Biting and chewing are perfectly normal behaviours for a puppy. Pups bite in play as it is all part of the learning process - they need to bite in order to learn bite inhibition. They also bite as they lack the self control of an older dog and get very excited when playing. Puppies chew as they are teething and chewing eases the pain of the new teeth coming through.

When Tazz bites you there are several ways you can handle this. Many people have success with giving a little 'yelp' or 'ouch' when a puppy nips them, pulling their hand away. (like Bryson described). You can also immediately stop playing with him when he bites you. Do not scold your pup or say anything, just calmly turn your back and walk away and ignore him for a couple of minutes. It won't take him long to learn that if he bites... the game stops.

Do not worry too much about puppy biting. He will grow out of it (he will... I promise) and with sensible training, Tazz pup will learn self control and bite inhibition. Never, under any circumstances, hit or strike out at him if he bites, as this sort of punishment will not be understood by him at all.

Puppy chewing is also normal. When teething your pup will chew practically anything. So if you find your new $100 pair of shoes in pieces, do not scold Tazz... rather scold yourself for leaving them out so he could get them! Take care during the teething time to make sure there is nothing dangerous lying around for him to chew - this includes electrical cords. Provide appropriate chewing toys for Tazz (kongs filled with peanut butter work great!). To stop him from chewing on furniture purchase a product designed for this. There are many good brands available at your vet or local pet store which have a very bitter taste to a dog but will not damage your furniture. Bitter Apple is one of them.

Chances are Tazz WILL at some point chew on something inappropriate. When you see him doing this scold him with a verbal reprimand ("Agghh" is good said in a deep voice), remove the object from him and give him something he IS allowed to chew. If you consistently do this it will not take long before Tazz understands the 'rules' about chewing. Remember, to him there is no difference between a chair leg and a chew toy, but because you are training fairly and consistently he will soon only chew the toy.

Puppies will grow out of the need to chew when they finish teething. Expect to have bouts of chewing until your pup is around 15 to 18 or so months old....you probably won't see consistency until Tazz turns two.

Hang in there with him -- I promise things will get better. These dogs are highly intelligent and willing to please their humans... but as with anything worthwhile.. it will take time, patience and consistency!

Good luck to you -- and welcome to our *home* (a/k/a forum). *S*

And by the way... Tazz is darling! If he gets to be too much for you... let me know! *S*

~Nora~
Mom to Hoss, Lil'Bit, Buster & Bailey, CGC, OA, OAJ
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